Design Anatomy
Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we examine the world of interiors and design. With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled, and lived-in spaces, Bree Banfield and Lauren Li are excited to share their insights and inspiration with you.
YouTube channel launching soon.
Design Anatomy
Best of Design Anatomy Series: Nickolas Gurtler on Personal Style and Timeless Design
Design Anatomy will be releasing a 'Best of' series starting today, revisiting some of our most admired, inspirational & popular episodes for you to enjoy over the holiday season! Bree & Lauren will be back with more amazing guests early 2026
Renowned interior designer Nickolas Gurtler invites us to rethink the concept of luxury in our homes. He shares his unique experiences working on projects like a menopause clinic and a lively New York apartment, emphasizing that luxury is a personal journey, not just a display of wealth. Discover how Nickolas's perspective on luxury intertwines comfort, functionality, and personal flair, as well as the growing appeal of vintage pieces. With recent accolades such as a Vogue feature and a new book project, Nickolas offers listeners a peek into the creative mind behind stunning, personalized spaces.
Our conversation takes an empowering turn as we explore design's transformative power, particularly for women. Drawing inspiration from the timeless elegance of Monica Bellucci and the charm of 1970s Milanese style, we discuss the symbolism of red lipstick and the importance of redefining menopause. Nickolas shares insights from his collaborations with luxury brands like Tiffany & Co., Chanel, and Gucci, illustrating how luxury can enhance daily rituals through quality materials and thoughtful design. We delve into the role of vintage influences and personalized touches in creating spaces that not only look luxurious but feel it too.
The journey continues with a focus on sustainability in luxury design, where we highlight the importance of timeless choices and the craftsmanship of bespoke lighting. Uncover how Australian designers like Christopher Boots are redefining lighting as the "jewelry of a project," enhancing a home's ambiance and exclusivity. This episode celebrates the subjective nature of luxury, encouraging listeners to embrace indulgent and quirky choices that bring joy and happiness to their living spaces. Nickolas leaves us with the idea that true luxury isn't just about aesthetics but about the soul and character infused into every corner of a home.
Check out Nick's Social Media on Instagram & his Website
Bree is now offering a 90-minute online design consult to help you tackle key challenges like colour selection, furniture curation, layout, and styling. Get tailored one-on-one advice and a detailed follow-up report with actionable recommendations—all without a full-service commitment.
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Welcome to Design Anatomy, the interior design podcast hosted by friends and fellow designers, me, Bree Banfield, and me, Lauren Li, with some amazing guest appearances along the way. We're here to break down everything from current trends to timeless style.
Speaker 2:With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled and lived-in spaces, we're excited to share our insights and inspiration with you. And in this really engaging conversation with Nickolas Gurtler, an accomplished interior designer, he shares insights into the essence of luxury in interior design. He discusses his recent projects, including a unique menopause clinic that was unexpected, and elaborates on how luxury transcends mere opulence into encompassing comfort, functionality, and personal expression.
Speaker 1:It was an interesting one, the menopause clinic, I must admit, but I'm quite fascinated to see that one. We discuss how personal taste influences design choices and the evolving perception of luxury, emphasizing the value of vintage pieces and the need for harmony in design. The conversation highlights the idea that luxury is subjective and can be defined differently by each person. Yeah, that was probably one of the biggest outtakes, I think, from the discussion. The definition of luxury definitely changes from person to person, I think.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, it was so great to hear Nicholas's uh, you know, interpretation of luxury. It's not just all about gold, shiny things, is it?
Speaker:No, definitely not.
Speaker 1:Um, while we're talking about luxury, I am saying to come and have a look at the show notes and our offers down there and links to the other work that we do, um, which could be luxurious in your opinion. Um, I have a link there to the newsletter for information on what I've got coming up, which will be um design packages that are available and trend information weekly and also um some short courses that we'll be releasing. So sign up to know more about that.
Speaker 2:Gorgeous. And yeah, I think that really ties into that, you know, that idea of luxury and being a personal thing for you, what that is for you. And you know, with your um furniture collections, you can create that idea of luxury in your own home that you've got Bree sort of guiding you and holding your hand and giving you those um amazing resources, which is beautiful. Yes. Um, I think we all you know deserve to have a little level of luxury in our lives.
Speaker 1:Growing up if we can. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, and before we get started, I'll just remind you guys that um in the design society this year, we are kicking off our mentor groups, very small groups, with like-minded designers. We're just trying to live a creative life and be profitable and do our best work together. So um, it's a beautiful way just to yeah, not feel so alone out there. All right, without any further ado, let's dive into this fantastic conversation with Nickolas Gurtler. Amazing.
Speaker 1:Welcome, Nick. Um, we are going to be talking today with Nickolas Gurtler, amazing interior designer, um, about what makes a luxury interior. Uh, but before we dive into that, we also love to ask Nick, what have you been up to lately? Anything um interesting to report?
Speaker 3:Uh well, thank you both for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Um, what have I been working on? I've we've been doing so much in the lead up to the end of the year, actually. Um working on apartments in New York and in Sydney, houses in Perth, Brisbane, Melbourne, and Perth. Uh lighting showroom, uh dental practice, a little perfume project. It's a little fun passion one on the side. So yeah, I've been working quite a bit. And we just completed a really exciting um medical project, which is going to be in vogue in January. So stay tuned.
Speaker 1:That's so exciting!
Speaker 3:Very exciting project. One of my probably the most significant one I've done personally um in my career. Oh wow. And we just celebrated the nine-year birthday of the business last week.
Speaker 1:So you did. Congratulations.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Um I was just elected to the Victorian Council for the Design Institute of Australia, so that's really exciting.
Speaker:Another friends.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I'm hoping to um we'll make some change in the industry. Um, so yeah, I'm really, really excited about that. And the last thing I'm doing is um starting work on my book for the to celebrate 10 years. So lots of balls in there.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Jeez, that is impressive.
Speaker 1:That is impressive. So many things. And they're not like are just a couple of things, and here's one big thing. They're all quite huge.
Speaker 3:Well, we try. I'm an overachiever, always have been.
Speaker 2:So can I just so go, Lauren? Well, I was just gonna say um, so many things that you just mentioned then. Um, but can I ask you about the New York apartment? Like, how did you score a project in New York?
Speaker 3:Um, I was over there, as you guys know, my partner lives there. So I was over in New York in um July. And just through social media, basically. Um, it's a little, it's a small project, but it's an exciting one. Um, working in a an old heritage warehouse conversion apartment. So it should be really fun, a little bit colourful. Um yeah, it should be fun. So we'll be completing that in the in the early part of next year. So that's exciting. Um, probably end of January Feb, um, and then probably again in July.
Speaker 1:So amazing. I love that. And a book. So when you say you've started that, how far along the track are you? Like what are you doing?
Speaker 3:Um, I've been thinking about it for a really long time. And I wanted to do something at the 10-year mark, I felt time, as you can see, and Avidabok collector. Yeah. Um and oh look, I've got Lauren's book here. There we go.
Speaker 2:Thank you on the top of the pile there. That's so sweet. Thank you.
Speaker 3:But no, I want to do something to kind of come yeah, commemorate 10 years. We've worked on so many things in 10 years, and I really wanted to think about what kind of angle I would go on. And I think what I want to do is talk about the the blurring of the line between residential and commercial. I feel like our work straddles that quite a lot. So um I'm the working title is resmercial, but it's not going to be that. It's gonna be something more interesting and exciting.
Speaker 4:I love it.
Speaker 3:There's something along the lines of um, yeah, that kind of context. So um, yeah, it should be exciting. It's really fun.
Speaker:Yeah, super exciting.
Speaker 3:I will be hassling Lauren for a lot of advice on booking.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, I've got so many questions about the book. I mean, you already have so much absolutely stunning imagery of your projects. So that's that's done. Um, are you going to work with a publisher or are you going to self-publish?
Speaker 3:I don't know, actually. Um, I'm not sure. I think we probably would shop the idea around as a publishers and see what happens. But um, there's not a lot of books on commercial interior design, I think, from an Australian perspective, anyway. There's a lot of residential, and I didn't want to just do a portfolio of our work. I just didn't feel like that was the right kind of direction we wanted to go on right now, anyway. Um, so we'll see.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 1:There isn't a lot of picture. No, there isn't. I can't think of anything specifically. I mean, there's probably some maybe that we don't know about, but you'd be right. I think most of it's based on residential and probably even more decorating in a way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree. It's a lot of a lot of decorating sort of stuff. So yeah. So anyway, that should be exciting, a little fun passion project that I'm gonna somehow have to find time for.
Speaker 2:So well, I mean, talking about that blur of the residential and commercial, when you just mentioned that you've got a project, a medical center in Vogue Living, like that does not make sense to me, you know? And that's really, you know, how many medical centers do you think Vogue Living would publish? Like, probably not many. That says a lot about your work, really. And that is the yeah, because that is the you know, what you just do so well is that you really elevate that category of interiors, interior design. Can you tell us a bit about that project? Or is it all onto an embargo?
Speaker 3:I can talk about it. I just can't share you the extra photos of it. Uh basically, it is for an incredible doctor, um, Dr. Fatima Khan. She is a specialist in menopause. And um, it might sound weird that she hired us, you know, a young male to design her uh menopause clinic, but we have a lot of experience working in the kind of beautifying medical spaces through a lot of the work that we've done in cosmetic, you know, injectables and hair salons and stuff like that. Um, and I really, when I met with her, we just really hit it off and I really loved her vision. I grew up in a very matriarchal family, so I watched a lot of women in my family go through menopause. And um, it was actually really exciting. And I remember my partner saying to me, it's like, doesn't sound like a very exciting project. And I was like, we're gonna make it exciting. So um it's really more colourful than anything I've ever done. Um, the entire design is based on empowering women, and um yeah, it's it's uh it's a very, very, very cool space. It's sort of a little bit um like 1970s Milanese influence. Um I was really influenced by lipstick. Um, I the the concept of a woman putting on red lipstick and like how powerful Lawrence's got it on right now. Um, but you know how powerful and transformative that was, and that was a really big part of it. Um looking at people like Monica Bellucci, the Italian actress, um, was one of favourite people. Isn't she absolutely incredible? Um I looked at a lot of her kind of red carpet looks, and there was like a poise and an elegance in her later life, obviously, um, that she's carried through her whole life, really, but it was a big inspiration. So it's very cool. I'm very proud of it. Um, I worked with my gorgeous friend Karin Bochnik on uh she styled it for the photography and so very excited for that to come out in in the January edition. So buy a copy, support local press. Um, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Um I have to say that I did not expect the topic of menopause to come up in our chat today.
Speaker 3:I learned a lot about menopause through the process of this project.
Speaker 2:So I just love that because I really think that we need to open up the conversation. I mean, that's obviously it's a whole other topic, but you know, you were just you're learning a lot. And you know, and the fact that this gorgeous project is going to be published, and it just, I don't know, in a small way helps open up the conversation about it. So thank you for being an ally. That's really cool.
Speaker 3:Always, always. I think um what was really important for my client and for us as well was to not make it this issue that women don't talk about. It's becoming a very hot button issue. There's just been a Senate inquiry into menopause. Um, it affects every woman, that's 50% of the planet. Um, and we should be able to talk about it more. But also the concept that it's not a sickness and it shouldn't be treated like going to a hospital to be repaired. You know, it's she has a lot more of a obviously a medical approach, but it's a lot more mental health focused as well. So she was honestly such an incredible client. Um, and she really just trusted us to kind of roll with it. So um it's not like any medical practice you've seen with her.
Speaker 1:She's not world as well. She does she loves it. Oh, like that's yeah, that's amazing. She's very delighted.
Speaker 3:Mostly for her, she wants to get the message out there and um anything we can do to do that. So but look her up, Dr. Fatima Khan. She's incredible. Book an appointment. Um, she's she's absolutely phenomenal.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's that's really exciting. Thank you for sharing that. So you've got your New York apartment, you mentioned your book, you've got a medical center um going into Vogue. But I think, you know, to bring us back to the topic today about luxury design. I mean, I feel like your projects really, really encapsulate luxury in a understated way, but it's really really elevated. So how do you define luxury?
Speaker 3:Um, this is probably a bit of a long, winding answer, so I apologise in advance.
Speaker 2:But before I was an interior designer, this is your moment. Go for it.
Speaker 3:Before I was an interior designer, I worked for three luxury brands, uh, Tiffany Co., Chanel, and Gucci in visual merchandising. And it was really a uh an incredible education in what luxury is. And I think people think luxury, or they use the term luxury um synonymously with things like um opulent or um, you know, decadent or, you know, things like that. And I think there's this sort of connotation that luxury is shiny and luxury is over the top and expensive. And sometimes that's true, but I think luxury means something different to everybody. Um, I think the way I approach luxury from an interior's perspective is very material focused, it's very story focused. Um, it's very much about the little things that you don't even see in the images of our work, how a drawer closes, um, you know, the the practicality and the comfort of something that we've designed. Um, you know, we had a client that we did a tea drawer for that you know, we built compartments for tea bags, and that for her was a luxury, a little ritual she could do. Yeah, and uh and rituals in general. We love doing bathrooms for that reason. I'm a big b uh bath taker. Um I apologize to the planet in advance for all the hot water that I've used. But um, you know, creating a ritual around, you know, daily, daily things that we do. And I think interiors have a big, big part in playing with that. But I think what people could see in the images, um, yeah, I I was I was born in 1990, so I was born in the area of minimalism and you know, but I grew up loving really, you know, designers like Kelly Worcester. You can see all the books behind me, you know. I I grew up loving that maximalist kind of vibe, and I sort of found this weird tension point between them, and we slide a little bit along a scale depending on the project. But um, I always say my my my perfect ideal house is just a concrete box, but um, I don't really think I would actually do that. So we'll see.
Speaker 2:Concrete box with a big old bath in the middle.
Speaker 3:Yes, a big stone bath, knowingly. But um, lots of hot water. But um yeah, I think I think luxury it so you go.
Speaker 1:No, no, I was gonna say um with us break. I think one of the um I was gonna say when you were describing it then that one of the key points I think that can be overlooked in interiors is that luxury isn't just actually about how it looks, but it's about how it feels or how it how it operates or what it fun how you know, how it functions, you know, like with those soft closed drawers or um or something feels a certain way when you touch it, but you can't necessarily see that in a visual. So I feel like luxury kind of like can be overlooked in that way sometimes from an interior perspective.
Speaker 3:It's sort of tangible and intangible, and I think luxury doesn't exist without both of those things together. Um I think about you know, the idea of comfort is luxury. Um, it's actually one of the defining factors of the word luxury is about comfort. And I think that gets lost. I think the word luxury is overused so often. I mean, it's used in some contexts where I don't think it belongs, like luxury vinyl. Um, not really sure how I feel about that one. But um, you know, I think it's just this word that people throw in and it has this connotation with expensive or you know, opulent. And I don't I really subscribe to that kind of context of it. I usually say to clients when I take a project, um, how do you want to feel? And that's that's the the luxury to them. You know, when you go into like a really incredible hotel and you just feel good, and that that is luxury, and that you can feel in your house. Um, and I feel like a lot of people don't. Uh you know, a lot of the clients that we work with are you know obviously high net worth individuals, and we go into their homes, and I'm like, this is how you've been living? Like you could you could live so much better, and that's what we're here to help with.
Speaker 2:So and I think um comfort is comfort is sometimes a hard thing to convey using imagery, and we're so swamped with imagery and a lot of images that are just so styled within an inch of their lives. But you know, the comfort that you get from I mean, even the ease of making a beautiful cup of tea, you know, that's that's sort of a a really beautiful way to think about comfort in that way. But you know, the comfort of a chair of a oh, I mean, just all of the things that you use in your your everyday life. And I think also function, as you mentioned, you know, I just love your example of the tea because it ties into so many things about luxury that I that's how I see luxury. It's it's um it's bespoke, it's designed specifically for your client. And I think there is that element of that custom design, something crafted by hand, made just for you, and just to make your everyday ritual just enrich that whole experience. It's just beautiful.
Speaker 3:Well, it does mean something different to everybody. And doing this for so long now, I've seen how people live, and there's a lot of similarities between countries, how Australians live compared to British people, to American people, to people from China, to Japan. Everyone lives very differently in a lot of ways, but even amongst families, the way we ritualize things, the way we cook, clean, relax, all those things are very different. Um, so it's about kind of understanding those things, and often clients haven't even thought about it. So we ask a lot of probing questions. And some of those things we discover as we go. Um, I just did a presentation yesterday, and um, we're talking about the wardrobe and how they want to be able to put their clothes away and what they're really gonna do versus what's gonna look beautiful for a photograph. Um, we we designed a really beautiful stone plinth to go underneath the wardrobe for them to put their shoes. And I was like, I have prefaced that I don't believe that you're all gonna merchandise your shoes every time you take them off. Um, so you know, asking some of those questions, we they evolve as we kind of go. Um, but I think a lot of it is is feeling and how people live, but also something that this is gonna sound a little bit hippie, but like what brings you joy. And for me, my house is an experimentation, it changes all the time. Um, interior designers are the worst clients uh or our own worst clienters. But um, you know, I have a few really beautiful things that looking at them brings me joy and can't makes me feel calm in my house. And uh yeah, I think that's a luxury to me as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it is very personal, even just listening to you talk about that um wardrobe design and that you know, you don't think that they'll do that. But there are people that will will literally go, I feel good because my shoes are all like laid out beautifully and I put my things away and it stresses me out not to have them away. Um, I have a client at the moment where um, you know, the partner um is the exact opposite and they're trying to live in the same space. So like they leave all the doors open and the other one wants them all neat and tidy. So I mean, I don't know how that goes in in a world, but sometimes we're the ones that have to try and solve that problem.
Speaker 3:Um but yeah, designers are marriage counsellors all the time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's not the first time we've said that, is it, Laura? And I think we sort of end up talking about the fact that we end up being some sort of counselors. Um but you sort of brought up about the stone, the stone plinth. And I think um materiality really does play like a really big part in that, in the way something, I guess, comes together to make it feel luxurious. Um I mean, stone is obviously one of the kind of more expensive things, but do you think that it's about the mix of material? Like what is it about that? Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Um, I think any good designer has a formulaic approach to combining materials. I know I certainly do. Um, I just instinctively know as we're progressing, oh, we need to add a metal, we need to add a stone, we need to add a timber, or you know, I have a way of approaching things that I think is applicable to all of our projects and is sort of signature in that sense. And I think every designer does that a little differently, which is really beautiful. Um, I think you know, it it's so great to see, especially Australian design talent, the recipe, you know, if you will, to use a simplified kind of you know explanation of it, but the way everyone cooks the dish is a little different. Um but I do think the materials play a really big part. Um, Lauren and I have talked about this at length, but um, you know, the sustainable angle of things for us is about using natural. Materials that can be serviced, that can be cared for, um, versus, you know, the industrial strength plastic protected version, um, or versus the recycled option necessarily a lot of the time. Um, but also patina, which is a really tricky thing to communicate to clients, particularly when they've spent a lot of money. That it's like when you buy a new car, that first scratch on the rim and you've parked when you've parallel parked and you're like, oh, um, what'd you get over the hump of out of your house?
Speaker 1:You know what I mean? My rims look terrible.
Speaker 3:But you know, it's I understand it, you know. And I mean, even you know, if I buy a new bag, I scratch the leather, I'm like, oh god, like you know, I spent so much money on this. I've damaged it, but it's about like realizing that the the patina and the use is part of the story and choosing things that can be repaired and touched up means it will forever be beautiful. Um that's sometimes a hard concept for clients to get though.
Speaker 2:And I think that's really you know, you're showing empathy and that you're understanding how your clients feel about that. Um, so many good things you've just mentioned then. Um, I just wanted to touch on um the stone plinth of your clients' shoes again, because I feel like that is a beautiful lecture. I know. Well, it's a beautiful touch of luxury to add into somebody's everyday ritual. And I feel like by adding that stone plength detail, that you're actually more encouraged to take a bit more care in putting your things away because it's uh you're changing the way that people are living and you're giving them that enrichment in their everyday, which I I just think that is a really beautiful definition of luxury too. I also liked what you were saying about um sustainability. And unfortunately or fortunately, I don't really know, but sometimes sustainable choices can be a luxury because sometimes making a sustainable choice, it might cost more money um up front and it may sound isn't it funny when you say that um oh that it's you almost say it like it's a negative?
Speaker 1:Like, oh, that's a luxury. I think it's a luxury almost like that I can't afford. Like it is, yeah. Yeah, I think I guess what we're saying is it should be more accessible, right?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So they're not a luxury and just more part of the everyday. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well our approach to things and when we, you know, enter awards and stuff like that for our work, it's always a question about sustainability. And I always feel kind of feeble when I'm answering it because my approach is very pragmatic. Building anything is not good for the environment, consumption is bad, just in general. Um, things that are sustainable in from a consumption perspective are often really terrible from an emissions perspective, so it's robbing Peter to pay Paul a lot of the time. So for me, the best thing I can do is design something that doesn't feel trend focused, something that can be, you know, grow with the family or only would require a slight update going forward. The concept of timelessness is really important um to us. We do a lot of, I would say, you know, a lot of white walls, and it's not necessarily my favorite thing to do, but um, or you know, working with white stone and things that I guess would be more uh palatable to the average person because we don't want the the family to have to rip it all out when they want to go and sell it, you know, it especially if it's a you know a five-year house project rather than a forever house. Um so I think our perspective is going, well, how can we design something that doesn't need to be ripped out, something that can be cared for, something that uses local suppliers where we can, and just try to be mindful. And I think that makes more of an impact. Um, and a lot of our clients are more concerned with sustainability. It is becoming more, I mean, I I don't think anyone would look at our work and think we're necessarily the most sustainable design practice out there. But um, you know, I think we do we do really think about it and try to be something pragmatic rather than something that sounds good um to people and to just sort of make it as part of the process. It's not kind of greenwash. Correct. And even when we're doing the design, how do we maximize the material? We're buying a slant. This is how this plinth came about. We were buying some stone for the bedhead, and I'm like, well, we're gonna have left over, like, you know, half a slab. Like, you know, what are we gonna do with that? So trying to waste things and try to be like, well, how do we reuse this?
Speaker 1:Um I feel like sometimes you'll specify a stone and um, you know, you know the cuts are coming out of it, and obviously get as much out of it as you can, but there's usually some left that we don't even think about half the time. So it's great to be able to fully utilize that. Um I'm just gonna touch on one thing because I have to, because of the colour thing, colour aspect. Um is I totally hear what you're saying about um I guess it being more palatable. And yes, if if the house is going to be, you know, turned over and sold within a certain amount of time, that has to be taken into consideration. But I would say that um without being trend focused, I think if if the client and the people that live in the home um I guess are open to colour because they love it and not because, oh, this is really cool at the moment, then I think that also can have the same longevity as something that's quite neutral.
Speaker 3:No, look, I mean, this is the thing, you you know, Brie, we've talked about this. I love colour, I really love it, but I just don't I don't always have clients who are willing to take their risk on things, and I try so hard. I've even offered to repaint a client's powder room if they didn't like it at the end.
Speaker 1:Um in overalls, I want to say that.
Speaker 3:Um, I wanted to paint their entire powder room in this Air Forcey kind of blue colour. Um, I think it's called Julux Groman Bath, I think was the name of the colour from memory. And I loved it. And I was like, it's a kid's powder room upstairs. It, you know, I didn't want it to feel super sleek and sexy. I was like, it needs to feel like cool and fun and for them to grow with. And the client, she was she was sort of open to it in the end. She was like, I just can't, I need to do it to do it white. We're gonna sell the house, you know, in five years. And I was like, I will come and paint it for you when you're ready to sell the house. Like, I promise you. But um, I do think colour is a is an absolute luxury, it can really change how you feel. I used to have a red bedroom. I painted it, it was called Carmen Miranda from Jules.
Speaker 1:I know the Carmen Miranda, that's an intense bedroom.
Speaker 3:I didn't sleep very well. I could do that, but um uh but you know, I it was invigorating. Um, I I think colour is amazing. I I like to, if I'm gonna do colour, let's go all in. Um, you probably know my ocean cosmetics project that it looks like Ariel's underwater cave. It's all completely beautiful to sky blue colour. So I love to like I I'm not about a pop, I'm like, let's go all in, or we'll be restrained. So um, but no, I think I think colour is a is a very luxurious kind of thing. Um, and I think people could could be more adventurous with it.
Speaker 1:Because it's very easy to paint. You can paint anyone can paint and it's cheap. And we'll look for a paint sponsor for this podcast now. Uh no. Um, yeah, no, I think colour can be luxurious, and I think it's how you use it. And you mentioned um your your project, what's it called? Ocean Ocean Cosmetics. Yeah, which you do use that, you know, beautiful blue, but I think tonal palettes lend themselves to feeling more like a luxury space than um maybe if you've yeah, doing like pops of colour against a white background.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I mean, yes and no. I mean, I take a lot of cues from fashion and I think that it changes a lot. I mean, if you look at Tom Ford for Gucci versus, you know, um Frida Janini for Gucci, and they're very completely different concepts, a completely different way of approaching colour. Um they could both feel very luxurious and expensive and beautiful. And I think the the fear for people is they'll get bored. But if you really love a colour, I don't I don't think you really get bored about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I agree. And it can and um I think you get more bored when you don't have colour.
Speaker 3:I think I think a plain white everything can be a little a little snoozy from time to time, but you know.
Speaker 1:I feel like um the other thing with luxury, we've talked about sort of material, and I guess what kind of goes hand in hand with that is that tactility as well. Like we've talked about the way things feel, but and sometimes you can sort of see tactility, so that texture and kind of amping that up can actually really add to that sort of flux.
Speaker 3:I've spoken to um I've spoken to Ruby Shields a lot about this because obviously she loves colour just as much as you, and we talk, we talk about it a lot. But for me, I've always felt more comfortable with tactility. I don't know what that's about, but I've always felt combining materials to be a very luxurious experience because you can touch it. And interior should be experienced with all of your senses, so you know, I think they're all important. But um, visual texture and how that looks, you know, a really, really thick, chunky, you know, Italian boucle against really sleek, polished stainless steel. Like there's a really beautiful way you can kind of play with texture like that. And I think that's a big focus in what we do is playing with the tactility of things. I I always say to clients, if you don't want to walk into your kitchen and just run your hand across it and lay down on the stone that I failed. Um that's cute. You know, and and that's why I've always been really averse to sort of products pretending to be other products. Like I don't really like tiles that look like wood or you know, fake stone or anything like that. The beautiful natural part of it and how how it feels when you touch it um is a is a big part of making something feel luxurious.
Speaker 2:So right. Um, I also thought another point, um, which I feel like you do convey that in your projects is something that's unique, something that's kind of exclusive. Like that feels quite luxurious. Absolutely, absolutely. And I noticed that you use uh Lost Profile a bit.
Speaker 3:I do. I liked uh I we almost exclusively use Australian lighting brands, um, not necessarily out of a devout sense of patriotism, but I just think Australian lighting is some of the absolute best in the world. There's a handcraftedness, especially with Lost Profile. Um, I discovered Ollie and his brand at the design show uh five or six years ago, and I don't think we've had a project since that we haven't done a a piece of his hands and nothing is off the shelf. It's always I feel like I'm a difficult client because I'm always like, hey, can we make this bit like double the size or fun?
Speaker 1:One of his probably loves that. I feel like it's he excels, isn't it? I think.
Speaker 3:Um so yeah, it's a it's a bit of a um an interesting kind of arrangement. But the apartment my apartment we're working on in Sydney is a double height void, and I want to create this in like a six and a half meter long drop pendant um in this kind of alcove, and it's not standard, but it means that the clients like the only ones that are gonna have it. So I think there's a luxury and exclusiveness in that. I mean, think about a Birkin and a Kelly, everybody wants one because they can't have one.
Speaker 1:So true. Um, and also lighting too. Sorry, go, Lauren, I'll come back to that. Oh no, uh you go, because I was just gonna talk about another point that I I was just thinking about how I mean, we're talking about obviously lighting in terms of how it looks from an aesthetic point of view, but lighting is another aspect of luxury in terms of having a room full of down lights doesn't feel very luxury.
Speaker 3:I call it homophobic lighting. It's homophobic lighting. I'm sorry. It's very nobody looks good under direct lighting, I can tell you that. Um you're hilarious. I almost never use them. Um, I was sitting on the sofa yesterday and my partner was cooking and he turned it on, and I was just like, oh, like, no, off, off. I have a very carefully curated layer of lighting. Um, sometimes I go to people's homes and they just have all the down, and like you know those houses and they've got like 50 downlights in each room. And I'm like, I don't it's most modern houses, I feel like do I need performing micro surgery on me? Like, why does it need to be so angry? Microsurgery. But lighting to me is is the jewelry of of the project. I don't I've I think you know, we play a lot with budget. A lot of our work looks a lot more expensive than it is because we've been clever with, you know, creating ideas and concepts that feel luxurious that didn't cost a lot. But lighting is somewhere I just have never cheaped out on. I don't think it it's the most obvious thing that you've you've done on the budget if if the lighting's not kind of good. And you can also take lights with you when you sell the house. That's what that's always what the bribe I use to clients to get a piece over the line. But okay, yeah. But you know, Australia in particular has so many incredible lighting makers who, and we pretty much mostly use at least now, uh, work with hand finished materials. So age brass, age bronze, um, you know, hand finished stainless, that kind of thing. We're not really using a lot of machine kind of finished or like blonde brass. We don't really kind of work with that a lot these days, but you know, it's like jewelry. And when you walk around the space, you know, like I have a Christopher Boots light that I customized from his standard Prometheus collection. And then every time I have a guest over, that is the one piece that people are like, wow, this is amazing. Um, and it is a little jewel in my house. So um is that is a big part of it for me.
Speaker 2:So we've got yeah, Lost Studio, Christopher Boots, Volker Hag, Articolo. Um we do have good lighting with the code. We have got so many.
Speaker 3:Uh it's called the Lighting Mafia, apparently.
Speaker:Um that's hilarious.
Speaker 3:Uh there's the uh there's Henry Wilson, there's Ross Garden, like the you know, Australia has some of the best lighting. I've been to you, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I was gonna say, I mean, New Zealand as well, Snelling Studio. Yes, absolutely. And um, oh, there's another one as well. Nightworks.
Speaker 1:Nightworks, yeah, that's what I think. That's pretty.
Speaker 2:I think we could you know bring them into uh like they're practically Australian, right? Yeah, sorry, New Zealand.
Speaker 1:We all disclaim yeah, we claim New Zealanders as Australians all the time.
Speaker 2:They're punching above their weight, yeah. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 3:I mean, when I first started studying design, you know, I feel like the Italian renaissance, if you will, was in everyone that wanted Minotti and all these like Cassina and all these Italian brands. And um, you know, I just don't feel like lighting has ever really tickled me until I looked at Australian lighting. Um, Apparatus Studio excluded, obviously, they do amazing work. Um Allied Maker as well out of New York, also amazing. But um, yeah, effectively, like I think Australian lighting is incredible. I'm also seeing amazing lights being made from like small up-and-coming people, Objects for Thought, one of my new favorite lighting brands. Such nice guys. Um, and they've made an office for us for our light uh for our studio and um two of them for our project in uh New York, and just like people with so much creativity and so much raw artisan feel. Very, very cool.
Speaker 2:So it's really beautiful. And I suppose um almost to counter what you were saying a little bit about the lighty is something that you really feel like you don't want to compromise so much on the budget. Because I also think that sometimes what you want to achieve is the glow, is the effect that you get. And I think that sometimes in your home you can really go to IKEA, go to your homeware store on in down your high street and pick up something that was is gonna give you that glow effect. Like don't feel like oh one day I'm gonna get that light. Like, please turn off your down lights and just buy whatever lamp you can afford today.
Speaker 1:100% would agree it is that I think we're all absolutely on board with that. Yes, I think it's such a difference.
Speaker 3:If we inherently come from a fire celebrating species, we're all about uh being around a campfire, uh, you know, from there it was candles. We have programmed to enjoy a softer glow. Um, and we also have like devices and screens, and like everything is just like so in your face. Like just turn the dimmer on, turn it down, like low level, very you'll look a lot more attractive to your partner, I promise. Um, there's a restaurant back in Perth that I used to take people on a first date to called Balthazar because it was so dark, but there was a beautiful little beam of light on the table, and everyone looked good. So um everyone looks better in low lighting.
Speaker 1:Oh, you've got to look good on a date. My god, that's the worst if you go to a restaurant and the lighting's bad.
Speaker 3:Like if you're so bad I went to one with cold blue fluorescent lighting, and I I I got up and I was like, I'm sorry to be this person. This is what I do for a job. You need to change out the bulbs because it makes the food look pallid. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:That was like some free advice. I normally charge all the money for that.
Speaker 2:I could just imagine going on a date sitting opposite to somebody that's you know looking really attractive, and you're like, oh, they are fantastic. Then you go next door to your 7-Eleven, you're like, oh my god.
Speaker 1:That would be Maggie. I feel like I knew I was joking with my kids how um, you know, getting older and trying to like just look a bit nicer in in lighting. Um, and with the whole down lights and lighting from above, it just everything, it's like the bags under the eyes are five times. And I was joking saying that I need to just like hook up a ring light that just follows me around. Like just talk to people through that. That would be normal. Go for it, Brie. Oh, but any is young guard just with good lighting. I love it. Um, so I think the other aspect is um with luxury, I think we could say that we went through a period of thinking very minimal decluttered spaces that were quite luxurious and even all white, you know. How um I I find that to be really cold. But even then, I guess there was a period where that was sort of also considered to be a luxury. Whereas now I feel like, you know, talking about tactility, often it's the layers and the things that get put into the room kind of after all of the finishes and fixtures are in that actually elevate it.
Speaker 3:I think lockdown had a really profound impact on that, actually. Um almost everyone's home I go to, my own included, I would say is probably visually overcluttered. But like that's just how people live, if that makes sense. So I think the idea of like it being minimal was like, oh, look, you know, a Marie Kondo and like this, like, oh, how elevated my life must be if I don't have a lot of junk. Um, I don't think there's a truth and an element to that. I think different people prefer to live in different ways. Look at architects like Todo Endo, like, you know, basically creating concrete boxes uh for Kanye West of Bay and Ruin. But um you know, like if some people like to live that way, we I would say I'm very influenced by Belgian and sort of French designers who do take a more restrained approach to that and space and light and you know the significance of each piece has increases the less stuff you have. Um so I think there's an element to that in terms of luxury, but I think it really is so it's a very personal taste. I mean, you know, I remember watching this TV show while I was studying million dollar decorators with Catherine Ireland and Mary MacDonald and so on. And I remember watching um Catherine Ireland's interiors going, I could never live in one of these, but I respect the design and I appreciate the layering and how it's put together. And I think that's the beauty of, you know, especially in Australia, we have so many different designers who do completely different things from, you know, so you there's you can shop around, you'll find what you like. Um we all approach things a little differently, but I don't know. I think like white feels safe. Um, I actually call it the kind of the Ikea con uh the Ikea complex that Australia seems to have um, you know, Scandinavian furniture is bright and interiors are light and bright because it's so dark through, you know, through big parts of the uh whereas Australia, I'm from Perth, very sunny place, it never really made sense to me. This sort of bright white, light oak timber, everything. Um, but you know, it's what people feel comfortable with. It's what's within people's vocabulary. And I always say to clients, like what you know about design is like looking through a pinhole, and what I know is like looking through the Hubble Space Telescope. So I'm here like there might be other things that you've never seen that you would love even more than what you have seen.
Speaker 1:Um, white analogy. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Um, but yeah, like just trying to take clients on a bit of a journey and show them things. And I would say almost every single project we've ever done, the client has said this is not what I thought I wanted, but it's actually exactly what I wanted. Um, and I was like, Well, I've done my job then. Like I've I've taken you on a journey and I've shown you pieces of furniture that you've never even thought existed. Because really, especially nowadays with marketing and advertising and social media, people are seeing the same king libbing sofa. Yes, you know, over and over and over again. And same with IKEA, it's like this indoctrination, and all you see is what you're comfortable with. So that's what you want, that's what you think you like. Um and I've been fortunate enough to do a lot of traveling. I'm very passionate about architecture and interiors in different parts of the world, um, throughout different parts of history as well. And we've all, you know, there's just so much to see and do, so many beautiful things to have.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker:That's for sure.
Speaker 2:I think another um point about luxury as well is sort of playing on that uniqueness, but um bringing in vintage pieces because you do feel like you've found this treasure. And you couldn't be like searching for two years for something. And when you finally find it, you might have, you know, you know, it might not have cost a fortune, but for you, it's part of that journey of sourcing it and finding it. And I feel like that's uh a nice way of looking at luxury as well. Do you use vintage that much, Nicholas?
Speaker 3:I love vintage and we don't get to use it anywhere near as much as I would like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is hard to put into projects I find sometimes.
Speaker 3:Australia is really tricky because the price point for vintage is usually really high because we don't have what I call heirloom culture. Yeah. You know, you're you didn't get left your grandma's armoire, you know what I mean? Like Australia is so young as a you know a country, we don't have, you know, hand with the heirloom. We don't have to be a little bit more.
Speaker 2:It's a different mentality. I mean, even if you had that heirloom, you were like, I don't like it. It's going on the it's going on the street.
Speaker 1:But it's gonna cause that big period. I reckon in the in the 90s and early 2000s where everyone just kind of turned their nose up on things like that were handed down, even if they were of value and they either yeah, got sort of thrown out or given away. And there is just less here. Obviously, you know, any vintage person here selling is over in Europe going to all the markets and collecting all the stuff and then shipping it. And so that's what you're paying for, right? You it's probably even the shipping itself that cost would be huge. Um, and then if it's lighting, it has to be rewired and checked and all of that sort of stuff. We've got to love vintage too, and I think I I think that you hit on a really good point, Lauren, that I was thinking about um Nicholas when you said like about appreciating um, you know, that more cluttered look, let's call it, you know, in that's in the sort of English layered. I think, yeah, yes, that's quite layered. But I think what it is, um, you know, to try and pinpoint why that still could be a luxury space, I think it's the consideration that's given to each piece, as you said, that goes into the space. So it's the time taken, like to find that amazing vintage piece that you've been looking for for two years. Or it's, you know, it's not necessarily always paying someone, but what you do or what we do is think about that and really put so much thought into every single element of the space. But you can achieve that just as much by doing the same thing over a period of time and not we know.
Speaker 3:We have we've got a lot of um, you know, new builds or where people are renovating, they've saved up or they've you know got finance, they want to do a big thing, so they want to do everything at once. And it's kind of hard to make that work because it does have a very moment of time feel. Um, you know, obviously when we work with clients on, you know, the whole house, it's a multi multi-year project for us, it's not, you know, a five-month, six-month kind of thing. But, you know, even when it comes down to sort of the bits and pieces, I'm like, you will collect these things as you go and allowing kind of space for that. And I always said to my clients, but you can always call me when you're in Morocco and you find some weird leather like ottoman that you're like, hey, do you think we could get this? Um, I might say no, but I might say buy me one as well. Um, you know, and I'm I'm also always on the lookout for things, you know, uh particularly for art and accessories. I have clients, you know, I finished the project three or four years ago. I'm like, hey, by the way, I just saw this. You should really should buy this. Like, this would be really great for your house. So, you know, for me, I'm never really done, never really done with the job, but you know, you have to collect things over time. And I think my apartment is a really great example of that where it's it's a collection over nearly 10 years of things, and you know, your taste waxes and wanes, but you know, I think when you buy something that you really love, it's kind of forever. I tend to be very um mindful on a purchase. Um, I'm not an impulser um unless it comes to a handbag. But um, you know, when it comes to furniture, I really like to think about it a lot. And um, you know, I think when you buy things that you love, they will find a home. Conversely, um, I like to say that interior is all about editing. Um, I talk to clients a lot about sometimes, you know, the thing that they would it was that, you know, when we're looking at sofas, for example, the number one that they love makes absolutely no context, like makes it has no sense in the context of what we're doing. So maybe it's the second best choice that is the best fit for a sense of harmony and cohesive interior. But that's really just sort of like how a style and a recipe sort of thing. Um, for me, from a luxurious perspective, the concept of harmony is so important. Um, I think a lot about Versailles and you know, the concept of enfilade, which for a bit of a fancy architecture term, but it's the relationship between spaces as you move between them. Um, think about the Hall of Mirrors as a really great example, what you can kind of see through um a threshold into the next space. And we think about that all the time. And some designers do a kind of shock value thing where like you'll move from the bathroom to the bedroom and it's like completely different colour palette, completely different story. And I do love that. I think that's fantastic. But I also, you know, I think for me, harmony and peace and living on a day-to-day basis is the relationship between the spaces, having a connection. And that doesn't mean using the same things in every room, but just thinking about how they kind of connect. And um, yeah, I think when you know, when it comes to yes, like a cluttered life, I mean, if that's what you like and that's what makes you feel amazing, then like you should a hundred percent, you should have that. You should find a designer that does that for you. I'm probably not that person, but you know, you should hire someone because there's no right or wrong. I'm not the arbiter of what is luxury, what is not, but um, everyone lives very differently, everyone has different values and people dress differently and feel differently about life. So um finding out what luxury means to you, I suppose.
Speaker 2:I love that. And I think, yeah, finding out what luxury means to you and then implementing it, just do it, go for it.
Speaker 3:Try I would I would say hire an interior designer, we can help you find out.
Speaker 1:Um I think harmony is actually one of the best words for luxury. I think if something is really jarring in a space, it w it would change it from it being luxury to maybe more, I don't know, it's more making a statement or making people feel something that's a little bit, ooh, not uh for me. I guess luxury is more about that, as we said, comfort. So you feel comfortable in a space. You're not gonna feel that if something's really jarring. So harmony is probably, I would put that kind of almost pretty high on the list for a feeling of luxury.
Speaker 3:There's an amazing scene from Will and Grace. Um, I grew up watching that. I'm pretty sure Grace Adler is why I became an interview designer. Um, but there's this one episode where Grace moves into an apartment and she's just got boxes and stuff everywhere, and she's like, Do you think if I move this vase on the vessel from here to here, it would throw off the whole room? And I think about that all the time because I'm that person. I sit at home even in my own house. I'm like, if I had swapped that where that glass dish is on the coffee table to the other book, would that would that look better? Would that work for everything up? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I do it too, 100%. But you know it does sometimes do that, right?
Speaker 3:Absolutely can do. But I think what it also comes down to like, you know, what when people will use the word cluttered they and I I think sometimes it comes across in a negative way, but I'm like, you don't understand those interiors that you see are so carefully thought of. It's it's like it's a it's an assemblage. Um, it's not just I didn't just buy a lot of crap and put it in. You know, everything was really considered. And um, I think that's I I think would be the hardest thing for someone who's not trained in interiors to do. And even those of us who are trained in interiors and working all the time, um, the assemblage of the things and the editing is really um the expertise, I suppose, and knowing what goes with what. A lot of our clients are professional, they work in medicine and law and finance and real estate and all those kinds of things, but it doesn't really require a lot of creativity. And sometimes I think it can be difficult if you're not creatively minded to understand that what you're paying for when you're working with interiors or paying for when you're buying a really expensive piece is sure it's a couch or you know, you're paying for a design or whatever, but it's the the decades of experience to create that, that that's what you're paying for. It's like that um connotation that you pay the plumber ten you pay the plumber a hundred bucks for 10 minutes work because it only took him 10 minutes um but because of his experience in his life. So um I guess it's the same with interiors in that context.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I feel like it's one of your matras, Lauren.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, charging for your time. That's why, you know, um I work in the design society, we talk about, you know, trying to figure out the value that you bring, your value, your unique value that you bring to your clients is what they want to pay for. They don't really want to pay for your time, it's that end result or that experience along the way. But that's a conversation for another day.
Speaker 3:But well, I think um I think also when you were talking about vintage before, um, I think it's I mean we love vintage. We are inspired by vintage pieces. We create a lot of our own pieces that are inspired by vintage a lot of the time. Um, not at necessarily it might be scale, it might be cost, it might be material opportunities um that we want to kind of tweak things. I'm also not eat I'm not really great at just off the shelf. I always want to change something. Um I'm that rude person in a restaurant who wants something different about the dish. I'm that person. Um, but I think you know, it's when you're hiring a designer or working with someone creative, it it connects back to their repertoire, their roller decks, if we still had those. Um, the knowledge we have, like we use a lot of pieces from up-and-coming people who, you know, I've just spent time researching and seen at shows or have come across um furnished forever. I have uh one of my favorite pieces is their waffle chair. I saw it, I think, on an Instagram post, really obscure thing. And I had it up in the pinboard of the office, and I have no have one in my office. I have one in my house. We just put two in a commercial project and it was the client's absolute favourite piece. And it's just not something that you can go into a big department store and buy. You know, it's knowing where to get those little weird little things. Um, there was a girl, Jess Humpston, I think her name was, from Craft Victoria this year. She had these little wooden tables with a travertine block in it, and I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen. I'm absolutely absolutely obsessed. The tables aren't super expensive. It doesn't mean I have to pay $9,000 for a side table to come from Italy. You know, I can buy something locally made by some small creative person. Is that was she music off carts? Is that I think so. I think so.
Speaker:They were little like kind of latticey wooden things.
Speaker 3:So, so cool. And um, you know, I call those pieces the future heirloom, and that's the kind of thing that you will hold on to and we will hopefully restart the cycle that that your great children will inherit from you. Um and you will love and will kind of have a long life. So I think I think that and it's also the character in the story. When people come over and like, wow, I love this little side table, and you go, it's made by someone locally, this was her vision, you know, it means that your interior has a soul and and um you can kind of a personality that it can speak to.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more, and I think actually that's a really good point in terms of defining luxury. I think if you know the name of the person that's created, that's crafted, that's forged, that's you know, handmade that piece that you own, that is uh that is like amazing to have that that level of connectness to the the maker, you know, whether it's a a dining table that you've met the person, the human hands that have made it, like that is the definition of luxury, at least for me, you know, to to know about the designer. Yeah, you know, even to take clients. Um, I took one of my clients to um uh Daniel Barbera's workshop. She loved it. We were talking about it the other day, and we went months ago, just the experience of being in his workshop, meeting Daniel, he's fantastic, and we had such a great meeting there, you know, to be able to have those pieces in your home that tell that story, you know, back to what you're saying. Um, that is just a beautiful luxury to have.
Speaker 3:I think you're right, Lauren. What it comes down to is like there's no luxury from IKEA because it's a mass-produced, you don't really know anything about it. It didn't come into your house with soul and didn't come into your house with personality or quality. And I think that's kind of where people struggle. But, you know, I I think we had the exact same experience with Lost Profile. We did a house, we had a lot of lighting, that everything was custom, and I took the clients down to meet Oliver. They got to see their pieces in the workshop, and it was like an experience they would never forget, and they would tell everyone that came through the house. And totally, so I just think that is really, really special. That is a luxury. And now I think when you know, um, I I started kind of courting this term Zoom shame during COVID because I was on a lot of Zoom calls with people and I was like, girl, you've got to tidy that up. Like, what is that? Um, and you know, I have a lot of I'm very house proud. If someone's coming to my house, it is immaculately cleaned, everything is perfectly styled, there is a candle, like I'm I'm like I'm that way. But you know, to feel proud of your house and have people come around and be excited about the house that you live in, that to me is a luxury. Um, and that, you know, I guess when you think about luxury from a more plastic kind of perspective, you know, working with um those fashion brands when I sort of began my, you know, professional career as an adult, half the people, well not half, most of the people came in, they wanted to buy something that had the logo on it. And to them, that was the luxury that someone else knew that they'd spent money. And I think to be honest, before I started working in that in that space, I probably felt a bit like that too. Oh, I want to have a Gucci bag or I want to have the look, I want people to know I spent money. What I realized the longer I worked there was the thing that I loved, the thing that was beautiful and crafted, and like there was only 10 of these made, or you know, like the stitching on this was done by hand or whatever that was the luxury. And the other branded products supported the more, you know, high-end stuff. But it comes back to things like, you know, couture and fashion. The perfume supports the business of the couture that doesn't make any money but is crafting beauty. And I think interiors can sometimes be like that too. I think there's been a tendency over the last maybe 10 or 15 years with magazines to promote projects that are heavily featuring expensive furniture brands, um, like Cassina or Patrona or Petrona Frau or you know, Artec and all these really high-end brands, um Edra, that kind of stuff. And people go, Oh, what a beautiful interior, they spend a lot of money. And sure, those things are incredible and beautiful, and we love using them when we when we can put them into a project. But that doesn't define luxury for me, at least. Um, you know, they have their place, but I I don't think that's a marker of luxury. I think that's the illusion of it, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I agree. I like that. The illusion of luxury, yeah. And it's because it can just be showpiece, right? Yeah, or status thing. And it's all the things we've talked about are much more emotive to do with what actually makes luxury. Whereas that is just like, you know, you could easily fill a space, even if you just borrowed all the furniture with all the very expensive stuff, but that doesn't it kind of it's the illusion, it's just the aesthetic, it's not actually how it functions and how you live. And and maybe you're not even attached or care about that. So it's not real, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not real. There's so much spoken mirrors. I was actually with a client um in a showroom. We were looking at lighting, some beautiful lighting for the kitchen and dining, and and the lady in the showroom, she said, Oh, um, you know, you want to well, the client said, Oh, we could put that in our master on suite. And the the lady actually said, Oh, you maybe want to put that in your powder room because then people will see it. And she's like, the client's like, but I'll see it. You know, it's not all about showing off to your guests or whatever. It's that's that sort of feels like luxury to me. It's just for me to just enjoy, and that's okay.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite um phrases of all time is um money shouts and wealth whispers. And um I think that's where it comes into it with luxury, where it's like you can spend an awful lot of money and it not looked like you spend an awful lot of money, and that doesn't that's not necessarily a bad thing, that sounds bad. But um, you know, if you've bought a handful of really incredible pieces and you know they all have this incredible story and you love them and they bring you joy, then that was a good investment. If you bought it so that people think you spent money, that's just keeping up with the Joneses to me. Um, and that I don't really think it says a lot about the people who live there. Um, I think Australians are not particularly good at this because we have a different attachment to our homes because of the commodification, is that a word? Um, you just made it one, but we know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 4:You're right.
Speaker 3:So the resale, and I feel like half the time the third client when I have a couple is the resale client. And you know, we're thinking about, oh, well, I don't want to buy this because, you know, and I'm like, we've lived in this house for 10 years. That's 10 years of you looking at this light fixture and going, wow, how much, how happy does this make me? Um, and I think Australians necessarily aren't um programmed as people in the United States, the United Kingdom, for example, to use you know, comparative countries, um, where they are a little bit more focused on like, wow, this is really beautiful. On the flip side, my absolute indulgence and my porn is selling sunset and million-dollar listing and all those shows because I love looking at these 40, 50, 60 million dollar houses, and I'm like, I want to vomit all over the floor. This is disgusting. Like it's the French one's the best.
Speaker 2:I haven't started that one, but it's on the list. I'm gonna get into it. They're my family. I love the family, the crets, crets or whatever family. I haven't seen the French one. I can't get enough to say that. So good.
Speaker 3:But I think you know, yeah, so you go.
Speaker 2:Well, I was just gonna bring it back to your sort of one of the first things you said. You know, it's not about the status, the bling, and look at me. It's the the drawer for the tea. It's that thing for yourself that doesn't shout in a photograph, but it gives you that beautiful, enriched, you know, ritual every day in life. And I think that's to me, you sound like, yeah, that really you've captured luxury. I think that's beautiful.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it's like when you if you close the door in a luxury car, that like kind of like thick, clunky click that it makes, um, versus the toyota camry that you get picked up in your Uber, you know what I mean? Like there's there's in this it's the intangible luxury.
Speaker 2:Although I have to say, sometimes I feel like if you're defining luxury, um, there's a Rolls-Royce, which is a very expensive car, it's a status symbol. Um, is that luxury or is your Toyota luxury? Because your Toyota is going to be like the most reliable car and it's going to do all of the things for you. Like it comes back to that function as well. Maybe a Rolls-Royce with all those little maybe silly bells and whistles that you don't really need. It's, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yes and no. I think it depends on who you are and the where you are in your life. I mean, I think there's a tendency with social media now to like you see all these young women carrying birkins around. I'm like, that was for a very long time. The the bag when you've made it. Remember Samantha Jones from the Sex of the City episode? She's like, I've made it, I I can buy it now. And I think we all But then she had to wait for it and she didn't want it. Exactly. But um, you know, we all we all want to jump to the Rolls-Royce, but there's a lot of layers in between that and different levels of luxury. I remember when I bought my first Ford PS star, it was black with a deep burgundy interior. I thought it was the coolest thing ever. Um, and was it the most luxurious car on the road? No. But I was like, wow, this is so cool and it's new and has all these cool gadgets, and that was luxury to me. And I think that's how you can kind of look at it. Like, you don't, you know, there's there's not this great divide between the Turak $25 million mansion and your one-bedroom apartment. You can still live luxuriously and live in luxury in your own space. You know, the there's not some invisible wall that prevents you from accessing it. Um, and it's just about being thoughtful, it's about being, you know, investing in yourself and your pieces. It's about, you know, collecting, and it's about hiring a designer who can help you get there because it's pretty luxury on your own.
Speaker 2:Well, my ultimate definition of luxury is to take a daytime nap. I haven't got there yet, but I love a nap.
Speaker 1:You know what? I feel guilty when I have a nap. I feel bad. I feel bad. Oh, I'm not very good at doing the napping either.
Speaker:If I could feel like we need to probably wrap it up, even though we could, I reckon, continue the conversation. Probably.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've touched on some really great points in terms of what I think it'll make people really think about what luxury is too, compared to what you maybe started started thinking of it as and oh I'd be It's a very plasticky word, you know.
Speaker 3:And I think even like I'm sure in the clickbait of the head, you know, the the episode you know, people ooh, luxury. And um, in some ways, I occasionally feel a little bit um not ashamed, but a little embarrassed that I consider my work luxurious, and I think that's a signature of what we do because I think people are like, oh, it must be glitzy, you know. And I'm like, Well, if that's if that's what you want, then that's gonna be a bit of a bad rap, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Like even the word I don't mind the word luxury, but luxurious sounds too much.
Speaker 3:I don't like lux, and I don't know why. I don't like luxe.
Speaker 1:That is true. Like the words, don't we have words for it because there's not a lot, yeah. I think it's overused. I like indulgence as a bit of a marketing thing, indulgence good.
Speaker 3:I also like obnoxious, that's one of my favorites, where I'm like, how obnoxious that that I spent this much money on this beautiful thing that I can't afford, but it makes me so happy. So um, I love that one as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's a new podcast uh topic obnoxious interiors. I like it. We'll wrap that one out.
Speaker 3:There's quite a few, I'm sure I can pull for that.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Nicholas. What a fun chat. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3:This was a great this was great. I hope it really opened some people's minds to thinking about the luxury. I could talk about it until I'm blue in the face. So thank you for indulging me for an hour.
Speaker 2:So um thank you guys for listening in. And just a quick reminder: if you would like some help with the interiors for your own home, I can help you in a course called The Style Studies Essentials. Or um, for designers out there, come into the Design Society for business and marketing and all of the things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in the same show notes, you'll find a link to sign up for my soon-to-be-released uh furniture collections, pre-selected furniture collections, and cool trend information, and then in the future, some short courses on styling and trends as well.
Speaker 2:So good breeze. We've got the utmost respect for the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. They're the OG custodians of this unceded land and its waters, where we set up shop, create, and call home and come to you from this podcast today. A big shout out to all of the amazing elders who have walked before us, those leading the way in the present, and the emerging leaders who will carry the torch into the future. We're just lucky to be on this journey together.