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Design Anatomy
Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we examine the world of interiors and design. With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled, and lived-in spaces, Bree Banfield and Lauren Li are excited to share their insights and inspiration with you.
YouTube channel launching soon.
Design Anatomy
Studio A.mi: Crafting Interiors With Empathy And Intent
What if the secret to better interiors is the same method therapists use to guide change? We sit down with Anouska Milstein of Studio A.mi to unpack a simple framework that reshapes design from the inside out: observe, explain, predict, and then change or improve. It’s a candid, uplifting look at how empathy, psychology, and good systems turn “make it pretty” into “make it personal.”
We trace Anouska’s path from psychology lectures to a concept-driven degree and the small practice apprenticeship that taught discipline, file hygiene, and craft. She shares how a COVID redundancy pushed her to build a studio that centres collaboration and consent, right down to greeting clients with a hug when it feels right. Trust becomes practical: a smarter onboarding questionnaire, three feeling-words per room, and a feedback rhythm that avoids polite nods followed by next-day panic emails. We dig into planning for how people actually live, why colour misses often come down to unspoken history, and how to “step into the plan” to test light, flow, and comfort before a single wall moves.
If you’re an interior designer, architect, or design lover curious about client psychology, rapport, and creating homes that age with their owners, this conversation is filled with honest lessons. Expect talk of body language, reading the room, mentorship, redundancy as a reset, and the relief of systems that keep creative work organised under pressure. It’s a reminder that design is a service, trust is earned, and the best rooms begin with listening.
Check out Studio A.mi's beautiful work on socials:
Insta: @studio.a.mi
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Bree is now offering a 90-minute online design consult to help you tackle key challenges like colour selection, furniture curation, layout, and styling. Get tailored one-on-one advice and a detailed follow-up report with actionable recommendations—all without a full-service commitment.
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Join Lauren online for a workshop to help break down the Design steps to run your project & business a little smoother with the Design Process MasterClass, opening 15th October!
For more info see below
Welcome to Design Anatomy, the Interior Design podcast hosted by friends and fellow designers, me, Bree Banfield.
Speaker 1:And me, Lauren Li, with some amazing guest appearances along the way. We're here to break down everything from current trends to timeless style.
Speaker:With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled and lived-in spaces, we're very excited to share our insights and inspiration with you. And today we have a very talented designer joining us. It's Anouska from Studio A.mi. , right?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah. But welcome. We're so thrilled to have you with us today to have a chat. Thank you for having me. Excited to be.
Speaker 1:So cool. I know. Well, Anouska, I think I first met you when we were invited to this gorgeous lunch that um Lauren Egan organized. So a fellow podcast of the Design Anatomy guest. And she yeah, she brought together just like a gorgeous table of women in interior design. And I just remember meeting you, and I was like, oh my gosh, Anouska, you're so nice. Like you were just so warm and gorgeous. And then we met at the uh Lyceum Club as well. Um, and then we just little chats on Insta here and there. So it's like nice to get to know you a little bit more.
Speaker:Yeah, everything's gonna be new to me today because I don't really know you at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And vice versa, yeah. It's a great way to kick it all off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:And I guess, like, you know, when I look at your work, I love it. It has like that French sensibility, like beautiful layered, rich materials and just an overall vibe that is very chic.
Speaker 2:So um it's a huge compliment. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really cool. So I guess um I'm curious to know um because on your website you said that you studied psychology before interior design. So, how how did you get into interior design?
Speaker 2:And how did all of that it's a good question because yeah, in some ways it's a a massive uh change, but and uh as we have discussed in others, there are definitely a lot of crossovers. But ultimately it came down to, and I actually really remember the moment clearly. Um, I was studying for end of third year, so my undergraduate um statistics exam, and it was like 11 o'clock at night, and I was trying to basically get through a semester's worth of slides because I never went to the um stats lectures because I hated it. And I just thought to myself, am I really because when you finish the undergraduate, I wanted to be a clinical site. When you finish the undergraduate, then you need to do a postgrad. And that's like another few years of um studying and a lot of it statistics. And I just thought to myself, do I really want to be doing this? And I'd always been creatively inclined. And I thought, well, what if I think about, you know, I'm still young, what if I think about something else, trying another course where I'm pursuing something creative and yeah, naively thought that uh interior design could be the way to riches as well. But you know, that's a work in progress.
Speaker:People do have that impression, don't they? I feel like there's that impression, and we're like, no, we're all broke. Yeah, it's like we're doing beautiful projects with gorgeous things in them. But come to our houses, well, maybe not all of us, come to our houses, you know, and it's IKEA and things that broke on a chute.
Speaker 1:Oh god, yeah, four, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mistake orders, an extra fast one extra while in bed.
Speaker:We've got a few of those, haven't you? Definitely have a couple of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, I did I did actually like I literally was sitting in my room and then I'm looking around me and looking. So at the time I was still living with uh my mum and we'd just moved into a new house. I grew up, you know, my parents moved around a lot. Um still largely just within Melbourne, but lots and lots of rentals. And it had always fascinated me to see them kind of like pick up their lives as represented by the objects and furniture that they'd collected, um, and then rearrange them and transform these shells. And so I was sort of contemplating that and contemplating the fact that I'd kind of inherited their love of doing that. And so I was like, hmm, what about interior design? And and Googled it. And um, yeah, I mean, interestingly, I've ended up much more in a path of uh interior sort of architecture, but also furnishings. Like I think initially I was I only understood interior design to be more the decoration, but um yeah, that's how it came to be. And I just the first course that came up on Google was um what I applied for. Wow.
Speaker:Good old Google leading the way.
Speaker 1:To be honest with you, like the first AI. I didn't know that statistics would be such a big part of psychology either. So I think that's fair to be kind of you know, you enroll into a course and you go, you actually study it and go, This is not what I signed up for, looking at stats all day. I did not think that would be, but yeah, I don't know anything about it.
Speaker:I also find it interesting. I don't know, I I'm not sure if you're the same, Lauren, but like I was really interested in doing um psychology. And I wonder if there's if there's a bit of a crossover with creative brains. And it's not the I I've heard other interior designers also, and I think we know even at least one or two that have moved over from psychology into interiors. So there must be some weird, I don't know, left brain, right brain crossover thing. But then when it comes down to, I think I was the same, I was like, that and lore, I actually really was law, psychology, and acting were the three things I wanted to do. It's cool.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's kind of all in interior design.
Speaker:Yeah, well, absolutely. But um, I realized that the law and the psychology part would be very heavy on the study and the the texts, and I and it's not my strong point. I was really interested in them, but I knew I couldn't do that all the time. I would probably go crazy. So yeah, it's funny though. I just I just feel like it's just not the first time I've heard that um that crossover from interiors to psychology or vice versa. Yeah, we definitely do need it though, don't we? Psychology and interiors.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. Well, I mean, that's what I'm I'm kind of curious to yeah, ask you, like with your psychology studies, has any of that sort of helped you with your interior design practice? Do you psychoanalyse your clients?
Speaker 2:Well, not getting them on the couch. Well, not in that sense anyway. Eventually, yeah. Yeah. Um, but um, but yeah, I think like the the basic principles of psycho like psychological practice, um or psych yeah, is the sort of the main things are um observe, explain, predict, and then change or improve. So I think like using those foundations and then you start when you think about the parallel with um interior design. So, you know, you start off with the observations, you're going into clients' homes a lot of the time, or their existing businesses, and you're taking those in and you're having conversations with them. And I guess like starting to gather a bit of a uh a backstory for yourself of who they are as it is. And then I guess the explain element comes into um uh like their history, so why they live the way that they live, why their tastes are the way that they are. And so you're starting to get into their minds and be like, okay, well, I can kind of see, you know, yeah, why they have been drawn to these decisions in the past. I think the predict is, you know, not only predicting what their reactions to certain things that you're proposing to them might be, but then I also think a prediction of um how they will use space. So, you know, when I think about joining planning, for example, um, yeah, just thinking about their flow in life as it is and thinking about, well, what's going to be most comfortable for them as well? Because you can't, yeah. Sometimes you I sometimes I think the inclination is to take people to a place that's like way too far from their reality. So you have to be realistic about that. And then that flows into the the change and improve ultimately. So yeah, how can you facilitate these um these positive changes uh through their design spaces? Yeah.
Speaker:It's fascinating. Exactly interior design when you pick it down like that, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I would love to like frame, yeah, I would love to frame a whole design process around that. Yeah, totally. You know, it's sort of like in a way it sort of speaks into their language, like anybody can understand that. So oh, how clever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting observing the crossovers. And I think, yeah, yeah, no, it's um just yeah, so so similar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's the thing as well. Like sometimes clients want us to um, okay, so this is my space, like what's the design? And you can't, well, I can't just say, Oh, this is the answer because you can't just get there from A to Z. You've got to go through all of those points, you know, like so what can you explain? Can you just say what they were again?
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so in order, observe. Yeah, observe, explain, explain, predict, and then change slash improve.
Speaker 1:Oh, cool. And that's the thing, like you can't like almost you can't diagnose when you don't have that. Um when you when you you can't observe. Yeah, you can't you can't give them that, I guess, prescription, which is like that end result when you don't have all of that knowledge and it's so much of a more richer space when you can really understand, you know, how the client lives. And yeah, I think that was an interesting point that you said you can't always you might have this great idea, but you have to predict that's going to push it too far for them, and they're not they might they might not like that. Yeah.
Speaker:It's a really good explanation of yeah, how how we do have to work as as designers. It it's making me think of um I used to dabble sometimes on the answering questions on the Dulux chat, you know, like when you get the little chat thing and they ask you questions, or they'd do like sessions where people could ask questions and you'd get people saying things like, What color should I paint my lounge room? That was all the information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Oh no. And you'd be like, Yeah, I'm a just a little more would be great.
Speaker:Just a little. It's the same thing that Lauren's saying is like, you know, we do have clients who think we can just walk into a space and go, this we could walk into a space and go, well, this is how you should do it. But for it to work for that person, you have to have all those steps in place to properly understand, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think it's one thing, you know, I I think most of us in our profession, we have we would have the ability to enter any space. Like I'm just thinking, for example, if we were to have an engagement with a developer and they're like, we just want to create beautiful spaces that have mass appeal, then I think we would all be able to do that to, you know, a beautiful level. But then, yeah, where my interest lies and how I've sort of been growing my business is well, how do I make it feel really personal to the client? And yeah, I'm sure that that approach is also common for a lot of others.
Speaker:Um, I was gonna say it sort of leads into that question of trust too. So I think when you're able to go through those steps with a client, you it is a way of kind of building trust with them because you're showing that you need to understand them and you're exchanging, you know, ideas and conversations. Is that is that the way you would do it in terms of building up trust with a client so they, you know, really are invested in in what you're telling them or what's that process like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, trust is such a complex one because I think that people do have, you know, well, everyone has their own story. And I think that, you know, a lot of people, I mean, buzzword traumas of their past, um, you know, even if they are really mild. And so I think that, yeah, going into meeting clients and um and just being aware that trust might be something that can be quite difficult for them and being really sensitive to that and sort of dipping your toes in lightly and um and testing the waters. But I think, you know, it it really just um starts with building rapport and I think just showing, or in my opinion anyway, on from my experience, giving clients a bit of a sense of who you are as a person, asking them a lot of questions and making them feel really deeply heard. And then yeah, I guess like a just a big part of rapport is just finding that common ground. And so, you know, if they are telling you, you know, if you ask questions and they're telling you a story, and then if you can bring in something from your past that can relate to that without, you know, giving them too much information, but just that that relatability, I think just um helps immediately uh bring those, bring that sense of connection. Apparently, actually back to psychology for a second. Apparently, there's something, and that this was so many years ago that I studied psychology now, so I can't remember exactly what it is. But apparently in our brains, um, when we're communicating with people and we find common ground, there's actually like a positive hormone that's released. I can't remember which one it is. So that's that's what actually creates bonds, um, emotional bonds.
Speaker 1:So there's science to back it. But I also think that, you know, what you're saying is um I like what you said. People want to feel seen and heard. And, you know, what you were talking about, observe, explain, predict, and change or make it better, that's something that I've never heard taught in terms of interior design. And I feel like, you know, we we learn the design process and all of this, you know, the elements of principles of design or whatever. But so much a part of the work we do is listening to clients. And I think being curious, like Brie and I have talked about that before. And I think that's why you probably, you know, psychology, just curious about people and interior design, curious about people, but it's I'm curious about how people live and um yeah, kind of leaning into that. And I think, you know, what drives me crazy is when I hear an interior designer say to a client, it'll look great, just trust me. And I'm like, how can you ask that? I feel like it's a really unfair request to say to a client, just trust me. Like you need to build that trust, you need to earn it.
Speaker:You do have to earn it. Yeah. You do.
Speaker 1:And yeah, we have experience and you might have won awards and all of that's amazing. But the client needs to feel seen and heard. And I feel like that is one of the keys in trust. And I love what you said about that relatability as well. And I mean, a lot of my clients are from such a different world than our pretty aesthetic bubble of design. And yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but you can definitely find common ground on some things, and it could be just sort of an an overworld, an overall worldview that you sort of feel like you have something in common, or it could be as something quite as tangible as I've got three kids, you've got three kids, where do the school bags go? And they're like, oh my God, I know, and the lunch boxes, and you know, they want to dive into those details. And and I think that's why it's so great that there is a designer out there for every client. Not every everyone's the right fit for every other client as well. And sometimes you just click so well with people, and sometimes you just might not, and that's okay as well. So would you mind if we went back into that night where you were Googling interior design and then you signed up to the course? How what happened? Like, how did you what happened after you you finished up? Did you complete that psychology degree or did you just throw in the towel that night?
Speaker 2:No, I did. Well, actually, I actually went on to fail that statistics subject. But by that point, by that point, I had already signed up and been accepted into an interior design course. So I did my first year of interior design with it still making up for that one statistics class, but finished the undergraduate. Um, I will be like full transparency. They actually gave me a 51%. No, no, no, no. I think it's because I think it's funny. They gave me a 51% on that exam. And I'm like, surely they just wanted to get me through. And they were just Yes, just by a hair. I probably failed again if I'm being honest. But yeah, got the undergraduate done and um, yeah, and then went on to crazily do actually five years of interior design studies, which um yeah, I think I'm so grateful for the course that I did, um, which was at RMIT because it was highly conceptual. And I think that really um helped build the foundation of yeah, my interest in interior design and sort of building concept up.
Speaker 1:Was it what you expected the course?
Speaker 2:It was the furthest thing from what I expected.
Speaker 1:I thought you were gonna say that. That's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it was probably like it not until I don't need to be sensitive. I'm like conscious of what I'm saying. Um, I don't want to put my foot into a remarkable course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I I think it's very common though. That's why I asked. A lot of people sign up for the degree, and I've done the diploma, which is exactly what you expect. It's waving around fabric and colours and talking about that. But the degree didn't touch a fabric. And I know a lot of people were quite confused.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think um definitely leaving the degree it was like, how on earth do I even begin to do this as a practical in practical application? But I think the value I mean, yeah, I think there's a bit of an expectation in there um from the university that you start to sort of work part-time somewhere. And so that's building that because they see that their role is more so how do we give you the tools that you need to think in a different way? Definitely. Yeah. I mean So yeah, when you're designing, oh sorry, like moments where it's like 2 a.m. and you're working on a project where you're like designing um a house that needs to fit into the palm of your hand made of like bark or something, and you're like, what is happening? But then ultimately you can understand, you know, like how your mind was pushed to think in a really different way is actually an incredible tool. And I think that's one of the amazing things about university, just learning how to think.
Speaker:Yeah, when else do you get to really, really do that? You know, explore all those ideas and be really conceptual. That's kind of the time to do it, isn't it? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I also think that those, that kind of way of thinking is something that's really hard to learn on YouTube. You know, you could you could learn some of the more practical stuff on YouTube, right? You could learn how to use SketchUp, you can learn how to do all that stuff. But that is so that's that's amazing that they can yeah, really change the way that you think. And yeah, I remember one of the first assignments we had to do. Um, I did the degree at Swingburn, was um you had to build a 30 by 30 centimeter cube and there had to be something that happened and a reaction and then an end.
Speaker 2:Like I was like, but what interior design and you're just spinning out, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it was so it was amazing. Like, yeah, the the way they get you to think so. It's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like super challenging, but um, yeah, so so uh fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I guess with your projects, have you um sort of been in the midst of a project and thought, oh, I'm getting a bit stuck here or something, and thought, oh, I I actually really need to learn lean on something that I learned in my psychology studies, or is it sort of quite integrated in your approach?
Speaker 2:I think more so if I do find myself in that place, um, you know, in sort of later in the design process, um, I'll go back to just the early stages of the project and I'll read back through my clients' responses to like early stage questionnaires that I send through. And these are some, these are like a more recent tool that I've developed in the last coup maybe like two years and the constantly evolving, just um kind of onboarding questionnaires where I'm trying to gauge as much information of that um from them as possible. And it's from that that will I'll do like my initial concept, which is building a story and doing initial mood boards. And what I find is just if I'm stuck later in the design process, going back to those like the initial concept presentation and the questionnaire often has the answers within and kind of redirects things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes you need to refresh and think, oh, hang on, what what were we doing again? Like, what was the vibe?
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I think just going back to the core of yeah, the genesis of it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So in your questionnaire, is it uh what kind of questions is it? Is it more like how do you live or is it like what is your least favorite colour? Is it specific stuff like that?
Speaker 2:There definitely is the least favorite colour. It's a handy question. Because I think it's important. Yeah, yeah, because you oh, God forbid, you you know, yeah. I've definitely had early stages presentations where I was really thought I'd had it nailed with the colour, and they're like, I actually hate that colour and have my whole life.
Speaker:Oh my god, recently where um I've presented and there was like I was like really happy with it. I thought I'd nailed it, and then there was just a bit of crickets, you know, when you get the crickets and like that's never good. And they're just and kind of just poker faces, and I'm like going, oh Jesus, this is not good. And it was literally just a colour. Like I was like, we really don't like this particular colour, and I'm like, oh great, I just based the whole thing out. I know. Yeah, so flash. Sometimes I don't tell you until and so if you don't ask specifically, but I've also asked specifically and then gotten an answer and then gone down a track where they've gone, well, no, I don't like this or whatever. Sometimes clients don't know what they don't like until they see it.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Or they think they know that they don't like a colour in certain applications, but then they can't even visualize it, you know, on a cushion or something yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. So yeah, I think definitely a few of those questions to try and weed out on it. I will try to avoid the possibility of going too far down one rabbit hole that just isn't going to work from them. But the the evolution that has really happened in these questionnaires, um, I will say I the initial one was built off one from my former work place, which was actually an architecture practice and was generously shared with me by my former boss. Um, and that was really about um planning and you know, things like do you prefer a double sink in your kitchen and like mixer taps and um yeah, integrated dishwasher, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then yeah, I started to think, you know, as as my um business has grown and it's become so much more about interrogating, interrogating is not the right word, asking a lot of questions, curiosity, um, and totally.
Speaker 3:Totally an interrogation.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, a soft and slow interrogation. Um yeah, just trying to think, okay, well, how can I start to bring those questions into the questionnaires as well? So um, and and start to, I guess, uh pull out from their histories. So there's questions like um, do you have a place that you've ever stayed on a on a holiday trip that really uh stuck has stuck with you? Um, and then that's something that we can talk to. Or um another example is there's a lot of questions surrounding um like uh sensorial experiences of spaces and even like tactility of things. Like, are there any fabrics that you love the feeling of? Are there any fabrics that are unpleasant to you? Um and you know, thinking about oh, another actually like a really great one that I've introduced kind of more recently as well, is um, once I have an understanding of each of their rooms that we'll be working on, I asked them to give me three words to describe how they want to feel in each room. And that's actually been probably the strongest guiding star to keep going back to when, yeah, because I feel like we if you're starting with just like a mood and a feeling, um, that's really powerful and that's a really great place to build a visual story from. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've actually asked a client that before. Oh, how do you want your space to feel? And they just looked at me like I had two heads. They were like they had never thought about it before. They'd never thought about it. So I think that's you know, it's a it's a good one with the questionnaire. And I've some clients I use them, sometimes I don't. Sometimes it feels like too much homework if they're so busy. And sometimes I'll print it out and we'll sort of go through it together. But you know, it is um it is a blend of yeah, those more feeling and emotion questions with the do you prefer a mixer tap or a but sometimes clients again, they've never even thought about mixer tap versus wall-mounted versus bench mounted or whatever. And you have to actually uh unpack that with them in real time, like go to a showroom and this is what an integrated uh dishwasher looks like. This is a dish drawer. This is a so it's it's kind of yeah, you it's not like that that's the end questionnaire. We've not we know all the answers now. It's like just an ongoing, an ongoing process and it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And each project's so different that you kind of uncover more questions sometimes that you might not have asked before. Um, yeah. Or some are irrelevant, I guess, too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely over time, just seeing, well, actually, I don't think that these qu like this question is serving much, so I'll get rid of that. But then in this last project, I really wish that I had known this. So I'm gonna bring that into the questionnaire. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So okay, sorry for jumping around, but so you studied for five years. And did that include like an uh a work placement year or something?
Speaker 2:No, I uh it was a bit silly of me. I didn't um yeah, I didn't actually start working at a practice until I think like the last six months of my studies. But no, full disclosure, I actually didn't get into the course that I first applied to at first, um, or my first preference. So I I studied a year, um I studied a year at Swinburne, which was a great course. Um, and that, but that was very kind of more architecturally focused with the interior design. And by at that point, I just I I had a couple of friends who um, or people I knew who were studying interior design at RMIT. And it just sounded really, really intriguing to me. Um, and so I just knew that yeah, I wanted to give it another go. So apply it again. Um, and then that was a four-year course, including like an honors year. So that was how they all stacked up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't, yeah. I mean, I've yeah, as I said, the diploma plus the degree is six years, it's just wild. But I was young, it was just, you know, it was fine back then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. You've got all the time in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when you graduated, what was your next move?
Speaker 2:Hmm. So when I graduated, um, as I just mentioned, I'd already started working, I think at that point, maybe just a day or two a week for a very, very small architecture practice. Um, and that kind of came to me. Uh I think so. It was crazy, I don't know, it's wild thinking about it in hindsight. But the the guy who ran the practice, he was only a year older than me at the time. So I think he he maybe started it when he was 24 or 25, which I think is so bold and amazing. Yeah. Um just a lot to take on at that age. Um, and he had put the word out on probably like Facebook back then. Um, and a friend of mine had said, Hey, are you interested in a part-time job uh in the industry? And I knew I'd started thinking about next steps in terms of starting interior design as a career in that last year of uni. And I'd identified that I really wanted to work for a small practice so that I could learn as many different skills as possible. Because what I was hearing about um going and working for some of the big firms is that you kind of get pigeonholed into becoming a professional at like window scheduling or um yeah, just something Just that was my own little drawing.
Speaker:Oh, really? That's your drawing.
Speaker 1:The window and door schedule was a nightmare or drawing toilets. Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:What do you mean draw? Oh, just like bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it was like a multi-residential project, you're and you're the bathroom person, you're drawing all the bathrooms. That type of thing. You get pigeonholes. So yeah, you've got to be careful what you want to be good at. She's great at toilets. Get out of the toilets.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think another one for toilet girl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. What a title. But that's your that's your nickname.
Speaker:Hey, toilet girl.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I think that was good advice that you got because yeah, that was my experience. You do get kitchen hold.
Speaker:Yeah, you can't. I haven't really thought that much about it, but you're 100% right. I guess working in a smaller firm, you definitely do more roles because there's only so many of you. So you have to kind of spread yourself a bit more across things, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. And I think also, and I will say, well, I was going to say, I knew that I wanted to start my own practice eventually, but really it was a little bit of uh encouragement from my parents, let's call it. Um, saying, you know, I think early stages they were always like, you're gonna have your own practice, you're gonna have your own practice. And I don't think I necessarily had the confidence within myself to have chosen that path for myself, even though I'm very glad that they encouraged me. It's very nice.
Speaker:Yeah. Um what should they do? Are they creative?
Speaker 2:No, not creatives. Uh, I think my dad, well, my dad has definitely creative sensibilities and um an amazing eye. He's always collected incredible furniture pieces and lighting. Um, and my mum, yeah, I suppose is creative in her own way in terms of just engagement in the world. But um, yeah, that they both have very uh non-creative jobs. So um yeah, my brother's actually an illustrator as well. So we don't really know how we've got something there. Yeah, yeah. I think they they always encouraged us to use our hands and and our minds and our imagination. Um but yeah, I digress. Circling back to the um yeah, so that they'd sort of implanted, uh, incepted into my head that um I would uh have my own practice. And so for me, logically, you know, thinking about the end goal and thinking about me being a student, it was like, well, if I'm gonna eventually start my own practice, then the best thing I can do is work for a small practice where I can learn what that looks like as intimately as possible. So I was the sole employee for I think probably like a year and a half working for this guy. And um, by the time I left, there were I think four staff members. Um, so yeah, it was really definitely saw the the good, the bad, the ugly. Um yeah, it was it it definitely like recognizing that it was going to be a difficult thing to do starting a small business, but um yeah, definitely worth it as well.
Speaker 1:It sounds like it gave you a bit of a idea of what you were going to be signing up for. So that's that's really a great, a great lesson. And I bet you learned so much in that time.
Speaker 2:Oh, so much. And I went in so chaotic and disorganized as a person and like such a mess. No, it's a I shouldn't say such a mess, but definitely like a messy, disorganized person. And um, and he was really, really um hard about having everything organized, having everything in the correct folders, um, you know, in AutoCAD, everything had to be rounded up to the closest five or round rounded down, like whole numbers and just perfect. And wow, yeah, it was totally against my character. Um, but without all of that learning and that process, I never would have been able to start my own practice. So yeah, just the tools and yeah, what I learned from that were amazing. And I think that probably only could have come from working um so closely with the director who was just instilling all of his amazing practices. Like I think if I had stepped into even a practice of like six people, say, um, and just been left to my own devices, I think, you know, I probably would have had like five desktop screens worth of junk on my screen at all time. And um, like what's wrong with that?
Speaker:I was gonna say, I wish I actually had that taught to me that discipline. I think I have it in theory, but in practice, not so much.
Speaker 1:You're good, Brie. You're very organized. I I'm good at the details.
Speaker:Not for myself. It's like more of a personal disorganization. Like my head is a million open tabs, and I I am I do I do seem to be able to manage lots of things at the same time, but I think I'm quite hard on myself in terms of and I'm messy. Um, but then I get to a point where I cannot work anymore until I clean it all up. Like it's just like I'm a bit chaotic, and then I kind of bring it all back in. So I'm not sure. You have just described me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. You've actually just described me like perfectly, yeah. Except, yeah, my folder systems are great.
Speaker:Yes, I do like a good system. Lose stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's annoying when you lose stuff. Um well, this director that you were working with, did he come from a large practice before? Or did he just Yeah, he he had worked for larger practice. Um it sounds like something you learn in a large practice, like folder organization and drawing in AutoCAD like so precisely. Like that's I mean, I'm I'm pretty good at that kind of organization because that's what I learned. So, you know, if you're working in a large practice and there's a team of people, you can't just like store stuff on your desktop. So I'm kind of in the habit of like having all my files quite organized. But um, you know, because it is just me and my husband and you know, occasionally we have contractors, sometimes I get a little relaxed.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker:I think I get I think I get like that when I get um like w when I'm on deadline, sometimes a lot of the the organization goes out the window, and then I sort of have to remember to come back and fix it all later because you know when you're just like jumping from one thing to the other all the time.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. Yeah, I definitely go through that. And I'm trying to get better at being like, you know what, it might seem really hard right now, but it's going to be more annoying down the line. So just get it done now.
Speaker:I agree. I agree.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think you're right. Like, yeah, learning those um lessons from larger practice and then yeah, being able to integrate them into a smaller practice um application. Because yeah, it there is that formality of the structure um in terms of yeah, the planning. Yeah, the planning, the the storing of information and files and everything, um, which is yeah, I don't think that it it is something like intuitive to people. No. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you worked for this architect for a while. And what about next? What was next after that?
Speaker 2:So I was with him for three and a half years. Um, and I I actually don't know, like, yeah, do people sh speak openly about the the names of their former workplaces with you guys? Or yeah, if you have two. I'll I'll give a shout out. So so this was um Alex Lake of their four studio. So they are an architecture practice. So I worked with Alex for three and a half years, and then um, yeah, also alongside his team. And then following um the three and a half years, I just realized that, you know, the clock was ticking. Uh, if I and you know, if I did want to start my own practice, I just recognized the importance of getting experience elsewhere as well. Um so finished up at the end of the year with him, and then the following year actually was applying for jobs around Jan Feb, and it was just a really quiet time. And um I I couldn't, I wasn't really hearing back from practices. And then I had my first freelance project kind of fall in my lap from a friend who was an architect um who couldn't take it on any longer. Uh, but then as soon as I sort of started those conversations with this particular client, then I got a call from one of my like top practices that I'd top preferences of um practices that I'd applied for, uh, which was if architecture with Eva Foskia. So I ended up working for the next two and a half years, sort of part-time, alternating anywhere from between one day to five days, depending on um what I was working on as like a freelancer, and then also kind of what they needed in the office. So that was amazing to be able to do that and kind of like yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, you know, removed the like terror of uh just diving into something just full-time. Um, and she was just such an amazing support. And um, it was actually super interesting because, well, I think A, working for a female um brought, yeah, just like a whole new world uh and just how a female architect approaches space, even though I'm sure you know Eva's way is just unique to her as well. But she interestingly had also um completed a psychology undergraduate before she started architecture. So I think I learned a lot from her about um, yeah, how to approach spatial planning from a really different way. And yeah, I remember just very, very early on um being in a meeting in a workshop with her where we were looking at a floor plan for some clients' um sketch design. And and she was like, okay, so imagining that we're walking in here and you're coming through these doors and you've got you know light coming in from over here. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've never like even imagined myself like stepping into the plan before. So that was really, really cool. Um, and yeah, I learned so much from her as a mentor, and and she was so encouraging of me starting my own practice eventually too.
Speaker 1:That's nice. It must have been hard for her to let you go, though. Like sometimes it's like, I want you to start your own practice, but yeah, can you just give me five more years? Five more years.
Speaker 2:Well, uh, I mean, for better or for worse, it was actually a pretty easy transition. I I say easy transition for her, but um, I do know that she was like, yeah, deeply upset in breaking the news to me. But um, I actually was made redundant uh in COVID because the first week that we had the stay-at-home order, the big projects that I was working on at IF Architecture, um, all of the funding got pulled. So she called me up in the middle of the day while I was working on it. Um, yeah, so upset. I think she might have even been in tears saying that she um didn't have any more work for me. And, you know, I was just reeling. But um ultimately it was the best possible thing that could have happened. And um, yeah, and and I'm actually still so friendly with her, and we're having catch-up drinks next Friday. So um, yeah, no, all it was it worked out very well.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was emotions were running high though, weren't they?
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, it was pretty much globally, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no one knew what to do or how to respond or how long things were going to go for. So yeah, there were so many unknowns.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so since then, have you been working solely on your own practice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, which has been amazing. Um, I will say I did have a brief stint doing some uh interior stuff for a television show, but that has to remain confidential. But that was that was an interesting little segue. Um, but yeah, besides that, have been so fortunate that uh I've been able to just yeah, continue with my own work. And it has been relatively, you know, stable in terms of projects coming in. There definitely have been lulls, particularly around like the summer period and definitely um yeah, moments where I have been like, oh God, am I gonna be able to keep this going and what am I gonna do? And like, where do you like how do you have jobs? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you know, when you're just like in crisis mode and then suddenly you get an email or a phone call.
Speaker 1:Put it out there in the universe, right? As soon as you think, oh my god, that job's gonna be finished soon. What are we gonna do after that? And then you get an email or an Instagram or something. Always away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a whole coaster though. It's yeah, fully.
Speaker 2:It's like you're so in it, and then you're like, oh yes, okay, we're getting to the end. That's exciting. And then it gets to a point, yeah, it close to the end, and then you get into the panic of like, oh, come on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All normal stuff, isn't it? So tell me about the name of your studio, Studio Ami. How did you how did you come up with that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because even to this day, I'm like, it's it's maybe a bit of a stinker. It was always meant to be a bit of a well, okay. So for example, uh, or case in point, no one knows how to pronounce it or how it's said. I got a lot of people saying, um, oh Amy and calling me Amy or AMI. Oh, really?
Speaker:But I think Lauren just knows because she's she speaks a little bit of French, don't you, Lauren?
Speaker 2:No, not really. Well, there you go. Yeah. So yeah, maybe some people can um yeah, work it out, although it is very, very rare. But ultimately, um, you know, I was trying to come up with a business name and didn't want to use just my name. And I, but also, yeah, was interested in maybe like plays upon that. So then I was thinking about just various ways in which I could use the let um the words in my name, you know, in in my names as an acronym in some way. Um, and yeah, Anouska Milstein Interiors uh and reading that as AMI and then thinking about clever. I think I just immediately saw the ties there between kind of how I wanted to practice, which from the very beginning I imagined as a really like collaborative process with people. And um, yeah, I think when you guys first reached out and we had a brief chat, I mentioned to you that I'd just seen, and I should say that this wasn't um, you know, something that was uh happening in the practices that I was working for, but within the industry, I was observing that it was very commonplace that projects would end. And, you know, even if the clients were happy, there will have there would have been like a lot of tension that would have arisen on site. And often there were kind of fractured relationships. And um, and yeah, even with the clients happy with the final outcome, often they would be like a bit miffed and yeah, there'd just be these like, yeah, something would have happened that um, or the process maybe just um had been one where the clients just were left feeling not great, whether it was with the builder or the the designer. And I was just like, well, how do I break that? Yeah, how can I make it so that it's fun and they feel really connected and comfortable with me and kind of yeah, just like I guess sort of I I guess I wanted to word I'm looking for, I guess just mess with like the hierarchies. Um I think that yeah, like people come to you as a designer because they they feel that they're lacking in in their ability to do something with their homes or their businesses or whatever. And so I think they often come to you kind of feeling a little bit embarrassed almost. Um, and I think that yeah, when you if you're able to be like, you know, I'm not a threat here and I'm not above you, like we can just be working together hand in hand, and I can be the this person who ultimately my role is just to support you in making the decisions that you want to make and kind of reshape um their perspective and uh of the dynamic, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. And I agree, like, you know, we've sort of talked about that a little bit as well, in terms of when you're working in residential interior design, you know, you get quite, you know your clients quite intimately and how they want to live their lives. So I heard actually it was Simone Haig say the other day, um, friant, friend client. I was like, oh, that's cute. Um, you know, I don't know. I mean, I I do see some of my clients sometimes out on a social level. But I I when I started my business, I was like, okay, I have to be seen as like this professional person. And there's that that in the industry, it's very much we need to look like how how do how do we want to be perceived? And it's more like how do we want to be perceived amongst our peers rather than actually clients, which is really common.
Speaker 2:So true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I was like, lately in the last few years, I guess, I've leaned into that being a more relaxed relationship. And it's I find it so interesting because I get to know my clients, and a lot of them, they're just from such completely different worlds, as we've sort of said before as well. And it's just fascinating. And you know, some of them are just I admire them so much in what they do, like these amazing, you know, women that have these really stressful careers, and I'm just so motivated to make their home like this tranquil, peaceful, restful, organized, practical space for them because they're just they're just queens. Like you're amazing.
Speaker 2:Totally. I've had a few of those. Yeah.
Speaker 1:They're cool. So yeah, I think it's nice, you know, studio ami and the the French word for friend, it's kind of like subtle, but it's a nice like little reference to your whole approach. And I think I read on your website, or where did I read that you meet your clients like with a hug?
Speaker 2:No, that was something that I just shared with you guys. Um yeah, you said yeah, yeah. I mean, that's an interesting one. And um, it was something that so in in my first year of working on my own, I'd sort of I'd had it instilled in me from um previous workplaces, you know, I guess having this formal level of formality and um sort of maintaining a a bit of a physical boundary with clients. But I and for me, like I I've always been a big hugger and uh um been like quite familiar with people pretty quickly. And what I was just finding was I it just felt like when I was saying hello and goodbye to clients, you know, even after working with them for a year, there would just be this perceivable for me, like this the space between us just felt so big. And so I felt like I, it was something that I was really noticing and it felt that I wasn't being authentic to who I am. And I was thinking, you know, as I was starting to build confidence with my my practice and my abilities, I wanted to make who I was showing up. The version of myself showing up as my work self to be more aligned with just like me generally, um, or me, you know, at home or with my friends or whatever, uh, obviously within limits. But I think there also for me came this curiosity in um, and I think it probably comes from psychology and an understanding of body language, just how do I how do I use these like subtle tools to kind of disarm people and um and kind of like break down barriers that might be in place that might not be so obvious? Um, so you know, if someone is maybe feeling a little bit guarded or shy, the ability to be able to say, you know, and and I never do it when I first meet them, but once they're on board, and usually when they come in for the first presentation, I'll greet them and be like, Can I give you a hug? And I've never been knocked back to this day, touch wood. But you never know. Like, I think you do need to be respectful of, you know, and and that's why I do ask for consent initially, because I think that's important, and understanding that people, yeah, again, as I've said, have their different stories and backgrounds and limits. But yeah, I think just that breaking that physical boundary and having that like sense of touch and like connection with someone, I think goes so hand in hand with inviting someone into your home or inviting someone into your personal space and feeling comfortable with them.
Speaker 1:That's so touching.
Speaker:That's amazing. I love that.
Speaker 1:That's lovely. Um what do you do, Bri? Are you a hugger?
Speaker:Um, I think I read the person and decide. I think it's great to ask, but sometimes you kind of know as well, like that it's one of those moments. So I don't know about when I when I very first meet them. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a case-by-case basis, but I am a hugger in general. Like I'm definitely uh opening a friendly person.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I can see that fully. And it's interesting that you say that, like, yeah, with your, you know, you're reading them. And, you know, I would encourage you to maybe challenge that because my experience has been that the clients who initially come across as like quite reserved and maybe don't feel like they're it seems like they're not very confident in expressing, I don't know, whether it's their emotions or their thoughts or what or what have you, or maybe come across as quite shy. I I almost always find that like once the hug has happened, um, once we've like crossed that, then suddenly you just like really see that soften and like that opening and um yeah, that that sort of ease coming in.
Speaker:It's a bit like what, yeah, it's fit like what you said before, showing them that you're no threat. Like there's it it it the boundaries aren't well, there's boundaries, but you know, they can be open and I guess a little bit vulnerable with you, which is kind of important if you're gonna do your job, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think you're so right there. Just this message that, you know, like you're safe with me. And I'm like, I'm actually like here to hold you in this process. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's so touching. I'm not gonna start holding their hands, but that's only after maybe six months or so.
Speaker 2:I mean, like skip through the site joyfully together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be nice. But to be honest with you as well, I think a lot of clients look at interior design websites or look at somebody's presence on Instagram and they're scared. They're scared to reach out, they're intimidated. And I feel like that's really almost a um, it's a real clash to what we do because we're literally in their walking robes, we're in their ensuites, they're we're in their very private spaces. They should feel really disarmed, as you say. And also tell me what you think, tell me the feedback. Am I on the right track? Sometimes clients if they feel like they can't speak to you honestly. And I don't know, I I want to know, like, tell me, tell me a thing.
Speaker:You know, you'll get the sort of agreeable meeting, and then you'll get the 24 hours later. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, it's that's a classic. Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, actually, I've thought about it, and because I don't think they've maybe got the confidence to say what they want to say in in the meeting. And maybe we're maybe sometimes we're so confident about what we're presenting. And they I know I've definitely had gorgeous clients who've gone, I just didn't really want to offend you. Like your house.
Speaker 3:I know, I know.
Speaker:I don't have to live there.
Speaker 1:If only we hugged them at the first meeting. Oh, that's so sweet.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. I want to give you a hug now. Soon, soon, yeah. The shame about a podcast environment, I guess. Um but yeah, I think you're so yeah, I think what like to to what you just described, Brie, like I think for for me to be able to give them this sense of security and and feel as comfortable as they can do to express their their um yeah, their true feelings, even just understanding that when we can when we sit with things over time that opinions can change. But yeah, like in meetings, I say to my clients at the beginning, if you see something that you just instantly feel that you love or hate, I would love to know. Otherwise, feel comfortable to just sit with this and I'll send it to you and you can let me know in your own time. And also just letting them know that, yeah, there's there's no such thing as a dumb question. You know, I think so often they're like, oh, but yeah, I think for me it's like, well, if you if my clients feel comfortable to ask the reasoning behind certain decisions in the design, then it gives me the opportunity to sort of paint the the backstory and the approach of why I think it's the right choice for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it's a really good idea to guide clients as to how to give feedback, you know, as to what you're saying. And I've said that to clients too. Like if if you don't like something, if you like something, feel free to say on the spot. But if you need a minute to make up your mind, let's catch up in another week or so. Because you can't just say at the end, so did you like it? Like it's too open-ended. Yeah, you need to guide them. And we get frustrated when we don't get the right feedback that we want, but we haven't asked them to give it to us.
Speaker:So sorry, Brie. So true. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that and that is actually something that I try to do, yeah, and have tried to implement more and more is using, and and and I have um staff now, which is amazing. Using my staff members and myself in meetings to really observe our clients and their body language and their maybe like silent reactions to things. And then we and any sort of little comments or reactions that come up, um, we will always send through our presentations alongside anything that we discussed, and then, you know, and and kind of like gently question or query, you know, say we sense that maybe there was some apprehension or a bit of hesitation when we showed this. And I think that that just like opens up for them this sort of comfortable environment for them to express it. And look, sometimes it's a misread, but yeah, I also have to be like, sometimes I'd, you know, I'm not gonna get it right every time as well. But um trying to yeah, trying to give them that um that openness or that's yeah, that comfortability to express that.
Speaker 1:I think it shows you care as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it's part of the trust thing as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, come back to the trust thing. So before we wrap up, tell us a bit, yeah, about you mentioned you've got a team. So who have you got in your team?
Speaker 2:Uh so the team has fluctuated a little bit this year. I did have uh uh one great girl, Elle Ross, working for me for four and a half years, which was a very long stint. And she wrapped up, oh, when would it have been? I think uh May, maybe May or June. Uh I had a girl join me full as a full-timer called Mari Paul, and she's um yeah, a brilliant designer, uh, actually living here from France. And she was running her own practice over there, which yeah, she's out with her partner on a partner visa. So very sadly, know that uh it's not going to be a very long or super long engagement, but she's amazing. Cool. Um, and then I have a student two days a week. Oh, actually, now as of this week, three days a week. Oh, wow, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely having staff is really, really hard because supporting, you know, being the person responsible for someone's livelihood means that you're you're constantly having to make decisions for the business with that filter. But it's also so rewarding. Yeah, like being able to, you know, have conversations with someone. And and yeah, I mean, having the support, even from being in a meeting with clients and being like, what do you think they actually thought about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, just to bounce ideas with someone. Cause yeah, what did what was your read? Did they like it or do you think they didn't like it? You know, it's somebody else that was there. Yeah, that would be so nice. So good, Anouska. Thank you so much for such a great chat. I just found that just really much fun.
Speaker:I feel like I've learned a bit.
Speaker 2:I know. And vice versa. It was so great to um, yeah, dive deep into those topics and yeah, think about them um more comprehensively and yeah, get your ideas on things too.
Speaker 1:Oh, well, I think you know, the clients must be just so thrilled to work with you, they must have the best time.
Speaker 2:I hope so. That's the yeah, that's the intent.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thanks, Anouska. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. We've got the utmost respect for the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. They're the OG custodians of this unceded land and its waters, where we set up shop, create, and call home and come to you from this podcast today. A big shout out to all of the amazing elders who have walked before us, those listening. Leading the way in the present, and the emerging leaders who will carry the torch into the future. We're just lucky to be on this journey together.