Design Anatomy
Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we examine the world of interiors and design. With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled, and lived-in spaces, Bree Banfield and Lauren Li are excited to share their insights and inspiration with you.
YouTube channel launching soon.
Design Anatomy
Designer Revealed: Bree Banfield's Career Path & Creative Process
Pull up a chair as Bree Banfield candidly shares her remarkable journey through the world of interior design in this revealing episode of Design Anatomy. From rearranging her childhood bedroom to becoming a respected designer, stylist, and trend forecaster, Bree's story is equal parts inspiration and practical wisdom.
With refreshing honesty, Bree recounts her early determination to enter the design world, her nail-biting wait for acceptance into design school, and the valuable lessons learned working under both supportive mentors and challenging personalities. Her career took an unexpected turn when she left interior design to work for a carpet company – a risk that ultimately expanded her horizons into event coordination, colour design, and trend forecasting alongside renowned Australian forecaster Barbara Marshall.
Creativity flows through every aspect of Bree's approach to design. She reminisces about treasured trend books with their tactile samples, and explains how she finds inspiration everywhere – from international travel and fashion to the colour combination on a passing truck. Yet perhaps most enlightening is her candid discussion of business challenges, particularly financial management. "If you go off and have fun with all the good stuff," she warns, "one day all of the other stuff catches up with you and that's the worst feeling ever."
Reflecting on how social media has transformed the industry, Bree offers thoughtful advice for emerging designers while sharing her aspirations to create a furniture line and design her own living space. Above all, she hopes her work evokes happiness, interest, and curiosity – qualities she believes enrich not just spaces, but lives. "Curious people have way more empathy, they love harder, they're better friends," she muses, perfectly capturing the philosophy that makes her design approach so distinctively joyful.
Bree is now offering a 90-minute online design consult to help you tackle key challenges like colour selection, furniture curation, layout, and styling. Get tailored one-on-one advice and a detailed follow-up report with actionable recommendations—all without a full-service commitment.
Bookings now open - Book now
Join Lauren in person for a workshop to help break down the Design steps to run your project & business a little smoother with the Design Process MasterClass, on Sydney 3rd October & Melbourne 9th October
For more info see below
Welcome to Design Anatomy, the interior design podcast hosted by friends and fellow designers, me, Bree Banfield and me, Lauren Li, with some amazing guest appearances along the way. We're here to break down everything from current trends to timeless style, with a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled and lived-in spaces. We're excited to share our insights and inspiration with you. So, lauren, what's happening with you at the moment? Have you got anything amazing going on that we all need to know about? Well, that's so funny that you happen to ask, because I do. This one is for the interior designers exactly. Um, it's about the design process. So if you want to figure out how to stop like endless revisions, if you want to increase the profitability working more efficiently and just like get it all figured out, we're spending a day together one day in sydney, one day in melbourne. We're going to have to be in beautiful surrounds, we're going to have delicious food and getting in a room of interior designers is so cool like-minded people. That's inspiring just in itself. Stories, it's so great, you know? Um, there I want to create that environment where we all feel like we can share our experiences, this. We can learn so much from each other. So if that is something you're interested in. There's a link in the show notes or just Instagram message me or something. What about you, bree? It'll be so fun. Yeah, I'm the same.
Speaker 1:Things are going on that newsletter that was supposed to be out this week. I promise it's nearly there, but we do have some really cool stuff that's going to come through. A lot of it's trend-based I'm doing like a colour of the month oh, we do have some really cool stuff that's going to come through. A lot of it's trend-based I'm doing like a colour of the month. Oh, I love that. It's fun. Which I'm calling my chromatic crush. That's what it's going to be called. I love it. So do sign up for the newsletter. It is coming and I'll go raving on about it on socials this week as well and try and hustle some more subscribers. Good stuff to share, cool.
Speaker 1:And we have a very special guest. Yes, who's our special guest? Lauren? Oh, my God, I have been fasting to ask this special guest all these questions. It's me. It's me, it's you. It's Bree. We thought it would be fun because we haven't done that really, have we? We've talked about all of these things, but we haven't really talked about our own journey. I know it's such an overused term, so we thought this would be fun. It's true, isn't it? Yeah, so I'll go first and then I'm going to interview Lauren. So at least, if you don't know a lot about us which I assume there are people listening who don't then this is your opportunity to hear all about us, I guess. Yeah, so good, I think it might be good.
Speaker 1:To start with, I guess, your career. Did you have a kind of moment where you were like, yep, interior design, that's for me I remember like a specific moment. But if I look back at childhood, it was all about, you know, rearranging furniture and painting things. And interior design started in my bedroom when I was probably in primary school. Oh, cute, so I can kind of see. I mean, I had lots of creative endeavours. I probably thought I was going to be a fashion designer more than anything else, and I would spend hours and hours drawing outfits and coming up with ideas. And then I wanted to be an actor and then I thought probably aren't quite good enough, and then I thought I'll be a director. And then I kind of went yes, I was all about going to NIDA, and so this was sort of probably year 11. I'm like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to move to Sydney. I want to be in that world. I'm pretty if you know me personally, I'm pretty obsessed with screen. You are, you love film, I really do and so I kind of wanted to be in that, in that world. And then I think I started to think about knowing that I also loved interiors, started to think about and fashion. I was like, maybe it's set design and and creating those worlds which I would have loved to have done. And I can't remember what the tipping point was of no, I'm not going to do set design.
Speaker 1:Obviously, I made a decision at some point. Maybe it was just that I got into interior design, who knows? But I didn't apply for really anything else. So I was a bit. I remember I think I didn't get in on the first round and I was pretty devastated and I was like shit, I don't know. I just expected that was what I would be doing. I don't know what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1:And I remember going to interviews in stores. I was going to an interview at Laura Ashley in Melbourne Central. Yes, I remember that store and I wore my very pretty, like pastel outfit to try and fit into the Laura Ashley line Little house on the prairie, but I wasn't very. I was pretty quiet back then, so that was really putting myself out of my comfort zone. But I knew I needed to still be kind of interior adjacent and I was thinking, oh, I have to work for a year and then I'll try and sort of, I guess, go again.
Speaker 1:And then I got in on the second round and I was very relieved because I just didn't really have a plan. It's so different then to how it is now right, just getting into a course. It really meant a lot just to get into an interior design course. That's true, isn't it? And I feel like I think these days you'd go no, you can't put all your eggs in one basket. You need to have backup upon backup of what you plan to do, and no one ever really told me to do that.
Speaker 1:So I didn't, I don't know and I do and if you know again, if you know me, this sounds a little bit. I'm trying to say this without sounding kind of brattish, but I usually work it out. If there's something I really want to do or something that I really want to happen, I usually make it happen. So I kind of have this weird I don't feel like it doesn't sound a bit like you're spoiled, I get what I want, like I just feel like I don't know why that's happened in my life, but most of the time obviously not all the time and there's definitely been disappointments and things that didn't go maybe how I planned, but most of the time obviously not all the time and there's definitely been disappointments and things that didn't go maybe how I planned, but most of the time I'm pretty much like confused when it doesn't work out. But I don't think you should apologize for that. I think that you know, sometimes you do have to just gently push just to do what you want to do. I think that's you know. I don't know if it's a female thing as well, I don't know like yeah, maybe it is. I don't feel like this conversation before yeah, they'd be just like. I know I make it happen, I belong here, make it happen and I'm like, oh, do I sound like I'm spoiled? No, not at all.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously you have a talent, like a huge talent for interiors and you know, back back in the day you would interview for interior design and there were limited spots per year and hundreds, maybe even thousands of people would apply. So it was really difficult to get into those courses. I remember having to there's like an entry exam or something back then and there was a massive room full of people doing this exam and I was like, oh my God, I'm like and I was just talking about how bad I am at tests and exams and stuff like that and I was like, oh, and this was before you even got to the like there was levels that you had to go through to get to kind of like the final offer. And I just remember doing it, going oh my God, like it was kind of stuff like I guess, estimating things, and I guess I was trying to like work out whether you kind of understood scale and I don't know Like it's kind of practical. But I just remember going, oh God, I've got no hope, I'm going to have to sit a frigging test to do it because it's just not my, it is not in my skill set, unless I just know it like off the you know completely. Even then I feel like you get that pressure feeling and you kind of I get like this kind of horrible, sick, not in side. That just makes me kind of freeze up and then, like the time, you know like, and you've got 30 minutes, and then I just like my brain just stops, it's like. It's like like nope, sorry, I don't have the answers anymore.
Speaker 1:Did you have any early mentors or influences? Um, I guess, at work once I started work. So I was really fortunate to get like a I guess kind of like an internship you would call it. We didn't really call it that at the time. It might have been I. We had to do. We had to try and find like a mentor or a firm that would sort of take you on for a period of time and I think they still do mentor ships with a lot of the courses so that you can just like shadow people and learn. But mine was like a proper job where they kept me on. I think maybe it was like you agreed to a term or something and you did like a day there, a week or something. I can't remember the exact details and I was really fortunate that they said, no, we want you to keep working. It was only a really small firm, so I stayed there for a few years and I definitely had some great people that I worked with there that were definitely amazing mentors, like not just in, I guess more on the business side of things and how to deal with people, how to have client meetings, how to deal with our bosses, what food to buy to get you through the long nights of stone pack Smarties was my thing.
Speaker 1:I used to get a pack of Smarties. I didn't have a mentor but I had smarties that got me through. It was like you know, you knew you had like after lunch, like oh god, this afternoon's going to be long, like into the evening gonna be working back to finish something and I'm like, okay, we need, we need the junk food and smarties was my on my desk thing of just like having smarty after smarty feeding. Like didn't realize I had ADHD back then, so clearly I needed the dopamine. I'm like sugar hit, sugar hit.
Speaker 1:Then suddenly you're looking at this interior you've designed and it's purple, pink, yellow, really colorful. Oh my god, this is what happened. It was the smarties. It's so cute. Oh, how great, like early in your career, to have that experience of even being in client meetings and things, because honestly, it's pretty hard to get that experience. It is.
Speaker 1:It's funny that when I where I went after that they were very. It was still another small firm but they had two male bosses, managers, and I was the only one working on interiors and and they would sort of do more of the like top level stuff. They might do a little bit of the interior, but they were more client facing, but they hardly ever took me to a meeting. So I went from where I worked first. They would take me to meetings all the time, so I was pretty good at sitting back. Or you learn to sit back and watch but then jump in. Well, I'm a blurt. I would always jump in when I felt like I needed to get something across the line, but you sort of learn to work out when is a good time to do that and when isn't.
Speaker 1:But I hated the next firm where I just felt like I would not get to see the reaction of the client too, because I think it's kind of an important intuition when you're dealing with people. They don't always say what they're thinking, but the reaction they have to things you can often read between the lines and know what to say to them, to either get them over the line or explain something to them, whereas when you're not there you're relying on someone else's feedback. You don't really know how it went. Do you know what I mean? Oh, a hundred percent like it is. It's the body language that you can read says so much more, because people don't put into words what they're really thinking, but then you're getting a secondhand brief as well, like this is what happened, and now you have to do the tasks to implement it. It's really confusing and I didn't always trust them.
Speaker 1:What I did learn with that second job was that the two managers one was just like this lovely big kind of teddy bear of a guy and the other one was super egotistical and I learnt with him how to get my way without getting my way, if that makes any sense. So I'd present something to him and go okay, I've resolved this reception area, blah, blah, blah blah, it's all commercial work and he'd be like hmm, yeah, I don't know. Okay, yeah, it looks good, I think we need to do this, this and this, and he'd like make changes. But he'd keep going all the way back around to where it started and then say it was his. I think that works better, brie, don't you? And at first I'd be like no, what are you talking about? That's exactly what I did and I'd argue with him and he'd get really like, what do you know? And then I realized all I had to do is go oh, that's great, excellent. What a good idea, just in case. That's such a good resolve Thank you so much for your help. And it was like I knew he'd just go oh, of course, great, like. And so I always got what I wanted it. Just he just thought he was getting what he wanted.
Speaker 1:Oh, isn't it interesting, all those lessons that you learn like. It's not what you think you're going to learn in an interior design. True, that's so true, I mean we, I think probably one of the biggest things you don't know, particularly if you don't have a personality. Some people are really great at dealing with people, right? A lot of people aren't, and that doesn't mean they might be amazing interior designers. But we really do have to be able to deal with people, whether that's in a job where you've got a direct rapport, or whether you're dealing with the client directly, even dealing with suppliers, builders, trades. If you're rubbing everyone up the wrong way or you're not communicating properly, it's just, you're never going to get a good result, no matter how great a designer you are. So dealing with people is probably the biggest lesson I think I learned in my early days of working. For sure, yeah, what's the biggest risk you've taken in your career and did it pay off? It's probably two points.
Speaker 1:One was leaving interior design to go and work as a. Yeah, when I went to work for back then, it was in Victor Carpets, so I was looking for another. This was the firm that I was just talking about. I wanted to leave, I was ready to do something different and I needed to take a step up or whatever it was, and just at that point in time, there wasn't really a lot of around in terms of work, like jobs. I went for a few jobs and I just got bad vibes from a lot of the firms. The pay was terrible.
Speaker 1:At the time, I think I was building a house and I was like I don't know what. I don't want to stay here. I was a bit unhappy by that point and I was talking to one of the reps that called on me and she's like why don't you do my job'm leaving? I said what do you mean? Do your job? She goes like you know, it's a great wage and she's saying how much she got paid, which was a lot more than what I got paid. You got a car, you got bonuses and you just dealt with interior designers and specifiers all the time and was so you were sort of interior adjacent, I suppose. So the lure of that, and because I knew her, she just put me forward and I just got the job, like I didn't even really have to do much to get it, other than talk to someone. I think I did one interview and they just sort of trusted that she knew who I was and I think they liked that.
Speaker 1:Obviously I was a designer as well and then I knew how to talk to other designers and so I left design and went and did that and I guess it did pay off, because I wouldn't be where I am now in terms of experience had I not done that. I did that for I want to say maybe two years before they recognized that I had all these other skills and then slowly I was doing more marketing related things, things, yes. So I did that for two years. I reckon it was about two years I'm kind of guessing at this point. It might've even been less before I started to work on their events. So they would do events to launch products and I started I don't know somehow I was working on that designing the display. Then I sort of started to manage the events so I basically became I think my title in the end was that I kind of moved out manage the events. So I basically became I think my title in the end was there I kind of moved out of the consultant role because I was taking on more of the other stuff and I ended up being like color designer and event coordinator.
Speaker 1:I don't know, it was some ridiculously. I had to make up a title because it wasn't really a job. That looked like what I did because I wore quite a few different hats and I think I always sort of have. I loved that because I had the sort of design element. I loved production, which is still what I do with shoots and to an extent it's project management right. So you know, planning from start to finish an event, making sure products are ready to go, working with trades to create the displays we did lot of back then it was design x, so we did big design x stand. So I got to like be really creative and design loads, yeah, and then I also worked on the product. So that's when I started to do um.
Speaker 1:I started in the commercial stuff first, working on the color ranges and designs for the carpet um, and that's how I ended up doing trend forecasting and I had an amazing mentor then, Barbara Marshall who's the amazing Australian trend forecaster, because there's not a lot of us and spent a lot of time with her. I traveled overseas, I got to go to trade shows. I learned how to, I guess, decipher trends into Australian versions of what was happening and how. Back then we had to keep stock. So it's not like paint With Jewel Arts, you know, we could really come up with the sky's the limit, other than not having the colour available because there's no stock to be kept. I mean it's still an investment in the story that you're telling. But back then I had to make a call on colours that they were going to make that colour and keep it in stock. So when it didn't sell, it was kind of my fault.
Speaker 1:That is a bit, not entirely. No, that is, and you do need to legitimately forecast. What are people going to buy? Not this year, not next year? Yeah, like, how far in advance would they need to with carpet? We would be probably a good year ahead, but still looking probably. So it was 12 to 24 months, particularly in development. So if it was something new you had to spend time to develop. I guess the design, the fiber, what it looks like, and then the color ranges would be sort of like the end of that. And I worked with, like we do, a lot of great community discussions with other trend forecasters in other industries and people like automotive I think is the longest lead. So so automotive would be like 10 years. So they had to try and predict in 10 years. And it's not just color, obviously. We're talking about more overall lifestyle trends and how that then affects design and what would be needed and why, like there's a whole kind of rationale behind it. We don't just kind of go everyone's gonna love red. Um, there has to be like a reason why, especially if you're predicting something 10 years ahead because when you're in automotive that's when they start developing it takes them that long. It's probably shorter now, but back then everything was longer.
Speaker 1:We didn't have I couldn't just jump on the internet and look stuff up. We had like a little bit of that, but it was all big books, trend forecasting books. I miss those. They're so beautiful. Oh, they would have been very expensive. Wow, that was yarn, dyed yarns, like. So you'd open up these books and they have beautiful collage photography. You'd, um, you know, be drawing on what other designers were doing across the world that have like yarns and fabrics and really material finishes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've still got a couple of books floating around, too beautiful to throw away. They're kind of a bit rare now because they do still exist. But they're probably even more expensive because there's less of the made, so there are thousands of dollars to buy. So when you're I'd say probably if you're a buyer for a big group like Meyer or David Jones or something like that, you'd probably still invest in seasonal, proper trend books because they really tell you the story and, I guess, talk about more tactile elements than you can kind of get when you're online. But yeah, those fun days, so interesting. So it would be interesting to know a bit more about your creative process. We're talking about those trend books. Where do you go now for inspiration? Well, really fortunate, to travel. That's probably one of my biggest things and you know, obviously we talk about Milan quite a bit, but it's not just Milan, it's any kind of travel the architecture, the way people live, the food. I love fashion so I'm always looking at that. I think fashion and interiors have always been linked. It just depends on what comes first some of the time.
Speaker 1:We used to use fashion a lot back in the old days, like I'd wait for those massive. Do you remember? I don't know if you ever saw like because there were specialty magazines. You often had to order them and go to the newsagents to pick up your order. But so like it's Milan Design Week this week or next week for fashion, and you wouldn't be able to see. We didn't have social media. We couldn't jump on stylecom or I think it's Vogue now that's taken over stylecom and see all the runway. We had to wait for the photography to go into a massive magazine and be printed and it would be like this thick, so I'd say like eight centimeters at least. Oh my God, big heavy Best, though say like eight centimeters at least, big heavy best. Though.
Speaker 1:I love books and I love magazines. So it's like even just thinking about it now I can, I know I'm experiencing the feeling, the excitement, and then you just devour it and yeah, and in the end, even though you pay from a lot for these. They weren't as expensive as the trend books but you'd have to just rip out your pages and actually physically create mood boards and what you thought the directions were going to be. But you had to watch that very carefully. Fashion was a huge influence on interiors. You know what I feel sad? I feel sad that the younger generation can't tear out, pin up Like anyway, sorry, keep going. It is a cool thing, right, I do love that still, yes, the most fun I have seen, I think a lot of firms and I've been thinking about this. I want to look into it.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously everything I do is digital mood boards. Now, I rarely do, obviously, materials, but I have them in a tray. But I have seen a lot of people in meetings have printouts of their kind of inspiration just on, like kind of little A5, kind of cards, like key things. I think I'd like to do a bit more of that. Oh same Like a physical printout, because I have some projects. If it sort of feels a bit special, yeah, I have some projects like that. I love that I sort of refer to.
Speaker 1:But I have, like you know, almost like a postcard that you pick up from the gallery or something like that. I have some, you know, artworks or imagery that I really love. That wouldn't that be nice? Just to have a little card. I'm sure people would be able to tell us if you're listening. Jump on, jump into our dms on insta and tell us if you do that, because I there must be a service that does it.
Speaker 1:Maybe an online where you can just upload stuff and it prints out, and as long as it's for your own personal use, I think that's okay. What's that something pig? What's that online thing? I don't know that one something pig. What's that online thing? Oh, I don't know that one Something pig. We need to go. Sorry, then you got half of that right, oh, it's a process.
Speaker 1:So what would make my inspiration now? So travel lots of online, like I mean, we're all chronically online, right, but still magazines. However, I don't also don't buy a lot of magazines anymore. I'll buy them occasionally. I get them all on my Inzino. It's just easier for me to save images and catalogue them and keep that inspiration on hand than a magazine. And because I treasure the magazines now I actually really struggle with ripping out pages. Oh, I never could rip. I just yeah, you know, that's what colour photocopies were for back in the day. That's right Not to rip up the magazines. That was so expensive as well to get a colour photocopy, I know, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, I think it probably still is, yeah, so I guess that art and anything like I love local design.
Speaker 1:I think Australian has amazing designers, and I'm talking across the board, like fabrics, lighting, industrial, you know, ceramics, even Like we've just got a great creative industry and I take a lot of inspiration from that and what they're doing and how they approach things, or you know, that's always great, isn't it, to see something new, absolutely Like. That sparks, whatever it is. But also I always get random. I could just be driving in the car and see the back of a truck that has like a yellow sticker and then the truck's blue, I don't know, and then go, oh, that's a great color combination, or or it's a shape. I feel like when I'm walking and I'm not trying to resolve a design, that's when something will just like I'll see something completely unrelated and I'll go, oh, that's what I should do. It should be be like this, like just some detail or whatever, I don't know I guess, always, always thinking about that too, and it is. It's just it's when you, when you're, when it's on your radar. I mean, as you say, it's amazing to travel and everything, but you know, we can look to Australian design and you can look, you can see inspiration everywhere. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, so do you have any design rules that you follow and like to break at the same time? I should add to that Sorry, I knew, because I'll come back to you it's obviously movies.
Speaker 1:I already said that. But, like set design in movies or fashion costume, Is there a particular movie? Oh, yes, was there a movie growing up or something? Oh, growing up, I don't know. I watched a lot of musicals. I'll give a picture show.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about how I was talking to someone about this, how so much of that just went over my head. We watched that all the time, like when I was very young. Video, easy, I just knew all the songs. Yeah, little Shop of Horrors remember when that came out? Yeah, I'm sorry I'm digressing, but even though I feel like those quite stylized movies are always amazing because they had things that you would like. So, okay, you could just watch a normal drama or comedy and it's just like I would still pay attention to what their homes were and how they lived and all of that stuff, like Friends, friends apartment. I remember myself and my friend Asha were obsessed with that. We'd be like remember this vase, like we would remember the details in the background of what was on the shelves and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like really kind of over-stylized movies is probably what I got a lot of inspiration for, because there would be things that you maybe just didn't see in the everyday, or combinations of materials or like really kind of I don't know. I guess it was a bit more like proper set design rather than just, I guess, normal spaces. But yeah, I mean there's so many, so many. I know what a question. Yeah, that's a whole other episode. I do really think about that one a little bit. It's like when someone goes what's your favorite song and I'm like, uh, there's like I can't think of one right now the problem. So it's like trying to like go through my head, going like, well, which one? I don't want to like leave one out, I'm sorry, so does that? Back to the other question do you have like a design rule that you follow, like is there a thread, some consistent thing, or not? Really, I mean I, I know I guess there's some inherent ones.
Speaker 1:I tend to be a rule breaker as well. I feel like I like I like rules, so I like rules and structure. I tend to be a rule breaker as well. I feel like I like rules, so I like rules and structure. I like to have them, I like to have them around me and they help me function better. But I also can't wait to break them, like I just always come back but like I like to kind of go. What would happen if I just do this? And I'm very impulsive, so I have impulse issues, so I'm likely to go oh, I think this is a good idea and just do it Intuitive? Yeah, I don't know. Like an actual rule, I think scale stuff so let's say, the size of a rug with a like that stuff I think are rules that might be fun to sort of bend a bit. But there's definitely something not right about, you know, a postcard or a stamp size rug in a really big living room. Unless you're trying to actually make it into some sort of statement, it never works well, right? So I think those kinds of things I guess you know bench heights and ergonomics they're all important rules, probably not to completely break For a reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got one more question about your creative process. If you could design in any city in the world, where would it be? Probably Milan, that would be amazing. An apartment or something. I love Milanese spaces. Yeah, there's something about them that I'm very drawn to. I love just even the small apartment living. I can't even quite put my. I think there's something obviously to be said with history of places. I can't even quite put my. I think there's something obviously to be said with history of places. So there's just kind of like this, layers of history and things that you automatically feel when you walk into a space, even if it's not a fully resolved space, it's already there, so it already has character that you just kind of build on. And I guess I say Milan because obviously it has the big part of, I don't know, my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I spend a bit of time there and I kind of love the city and it's not. It's funny because people will say to me I'm going to Italy and like I'm going to go to Milan and I'm like, well, when you're not there during Design Week, it is very different. It's not like a touristy, it's not like Paris or London or Rome or Venice. It's kind of a working city and I think it's a lot like Melbourne in that way and I think maybe that's why it feels like a second home to me, like it's a bit it was very familiar. I remember the first time I went I kept going why does it feel like Melbourne? Why does this feel like Melbourne Like? And it's not, but there was just things about it that just sort of felt like the mood or the I don't know this underlying vibe. It's just cool. I can be challenged on that. It is very cool and I love melbourne.
Speaker 1:I really love melbourne, and more and more trying too hard. It's not on for show. Yes, yeah, they don't care, they don't care about the tourists. I want probably do for a little bit for the money, but still, it's not. It's a yeah, and it's a little bit grungy, right, I find melbourne to be a bit grungy too.
Speaker 1:It's not perfect no, there are perfect moments, but it's a. It's like a. It's a beautiful city, but not in that perfect, beautiful city kind of way, like a palace. Yeah, pull out your phone every five seconds and take a photo. Well, I do, well, we do. Yes, yeah, I think there's lots of ordinary moments. Yeah, there's um different pockets, different fields and everything. Yeah, I wasn't surprised when you said that that's a bit predictable. No, for good reason, to be fair, I haven't seen the questions. We're just, we're off the cuff, so that's off. These are the very off the cuff answers. Yes, but I might change if I knew what was coming up. Yeah, that's all right, off the cuff is perfect.
Speaker 1:What if you talk about business and stuff for a minute? What's the hardest lesson you've learned? Running your business Finances? Yeah, it's. You know, it's so funny. Not funny, but had a play date yesterday. You know, with school holidays here, you had a play date.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, kind of, because the mum came over. I'd never really met her before. Oh, so you get to know her. Yeah, she's an accountant and I was like I hate to be that interior designer. It's such a cliche, such a stereotype, but I don't want to put my head in the finances all the time. I just want to put my head in the sand and let's talk about fabric, let's talk about and it is a hard lesson, right, I think it's so for me.
Speaker 1:I think I mean I'm probably always going to be someone who struggles with the mundane stuff, and I can see it's not everyone thinks that's mundane. People love it, right? I like it when I can like. I like creating a spreadsheet and having an idea about how I want to do it. I'm not good at the implementation of that, I'm good at the idea part of it and I like to like do a budget, like I love a budget, a good budget, and I, you know, obviously this is what we have to do in a project, right? I'm actually really good at that. I can, I can, stick to a budget. I've done lots of big projects for brands, even, you know, photography, event, like. I just went through all of that. You have a budget. You don't have an infinite amount of money, so I'm quite capable of running finances.
Speaker 1:But when it comes to myself, I just struggle with it, and I think my biggest advice to anybody who was starting a business is to, before you even think about, like, what the business name is going to be and what your logo is and you cut all any of that is, just have like all of that base set up, basically, have a meeting with an accountant and you might not need a bookkeeper straight away, but just have that. Hey, I'm setting up a business, this is what I want to do, this is what I think I'm going to run, have some ideas about what you think you're going to earn. I have no. Like, my business strategy has never has been like a zero. I don't really have one I'm. I've got a better one now 50 years down the track, but, um, I never really. I just just kind of.
Speaker 1:I'm a bit of, as I just said, I'm quite impulsive. I'll do things a little bit on a whim. I mean, I have some nous behind it. But I think setting up any kind of business, just do all of that. First, know what your outcomes, you think they should be, and then you've also got something to measure it by. Like you know six months in. Or you can kind of go look, I expected to not make any money and this is where I thought I would be. Or you might be like feeling really disheartened six months in and going, oh my God, I'm getting nowhere. But that's probably where you're supposed to be. But if you don't know and have a plan, then you've got nothing to kind of measure that against.
Speaker 1:And also, I think it's good to have goals and things to aim for and a bit of accountability. I always do well with accountability. Otherwise I'm off the fairies doing whatever. So I think that it's fun with the fairies. I love the fairies, they're my favourite.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest um scary learning thing for me was finances and and and then coming out of um, you know, being married for a long time and, uh, without getting into that, not really having control over any of those things, and then having it all in my control, is exciting but also really scary because it all lands with me. But there's something really empowering about that too. So I think if you do it right from the beginning, set yourself up properly, even if you have to spend the money on the good advice to have yourself set up just so that then you can go off and just be yourself and build it from there. But if you have all of that set up ready to go and you are, you know tracking your best and your tax and all of that set up ready to go and you are, you know tracking your best and your tax and all of the stuff that you need to do, having some goals, having some structure then you set yourself up to maybe be able to relax a little bit and actually have fun with all of the good stuff, because all the bases are there, right, all the structure's there. Because otherwise, what happens? If you go off and have fun with all the good stuff, one day all of the other stuff catches up with you and that's the worst feeling ever. So, yeah, well, it just means if we can't figure out the finite stuff, that means we can't do our work. Yeah, yep, and you know, like, as I said, if you're good at running projects, so you can do it. It's just a matter of making sure that you know you don't overlook that. Yes, and you know you are doing it and you have been doing it. So, yay, yay, yeah, yeah, but thank you for sharing that because I think that's a really relatable lesson in business. So how do you balance that creative side with the business side?
Speaker 1:I actually really like working on the business. I don't like the admin-y, boring stuff, but it's fun to kind of be. I quite enjoy and because I guess I've been in marketing roles. I don't have a marketing diploma or anything like that, but I've been around a lot of marketing, working with inside brands and then for brands, so I kind of love that side of it. I love the strategy side of that.
Speaker 1:I'm very bad at implementing things, as I said, like I have great strategies, great ideas and then I go off and just like do my day-to-day working going. Actually I was going to do this and it falls to the wayside, so that hence the structure is required it me to actually follow through. But I guess I try and do in in theory. I try and do like one day a week where it's paying invoices, making paying bills, creating invoices, checking on the finances, I don't know, doing the social media captions. It doesn't always work that way, but I think if you can kind of have a little bit of a timetable of here's a chunk of time that you have to do that business stuff, you have to get it done. You can't ignore it has to be done, whether that's a day or half a day or even just like an hour at the end of the day or an hour in the morning. However, whatever works for you, I think you've got to kind of separate it out a little bit.
Speaker 1:Having said that, sometimes you, when you are feeling creative, it's like yesterday I was doing some, I was doing proposals which I actually told you, which can be quite draining. A lot goes into those proposals and they take a long time to do because you want it to be right. You're trying to make sure you've nailed the brief in terms of like I basically do like a reverse brief back, you analyze your fee, have you included everything? And I missed like so it's quite a lot. And then I put it into, you know, a beautiful presentation and then that gets sent out. So that's very hard to stick on that for a whole day because I find that quite draining. Very hard to stick on that for a whole day because I find that quite draining.
Speaker 1:But then I had I'm doing a shoot next week which is actually just a non-paid shoot, which is sort of like a test shoot, which I don't do all that often. But I just had this moment where I went I know what I want to do Out of the blue, I'm in the middle of this, I just had to divert and then I just created I actually smashed out like three different set designs and mood boards in a fairly short amount of time. It could have taken me a day to do and I probably did it in an hour to two hours because I knew I just had that moment and I knew exactly what my vision was and I'd been. It had been sitting in my head and rolling around for probably, like maybe even months, because it's a test shoot. You're both kind of like I can't do it this week, so it's finally happening. That is so exciting, yeah. So you just sort of like you've got to do it. When you do it, yeah, right, and get into that flow. When the strikes you, yeah, love it.
Speaker 1:So is there a part of the job that you secretly don't enjoy? The finances? Yeah, we've gone through that. Um, yeah, no, that's no secret. I sometimes really have to push myself out of my comfort zone, to which it probably sounds completely ridiculous to like speak to a trade for the first time I've got a job. I don't know why that's so hard to do. Sometimes, like just to pick up the phone and go I've, I'm working on this project. Are you interested? Like I don't know why that part is. Sometimes I have to work myself up to speak to someone, especially if I don't know them, because I actually feel like that. But I didn't know that you would feel like that. Yeah, no, I do, I definitely do. And again.
Speaker 1:I guess sometimes I'll have that moment where I'm like, okay, I need to do this right now because I can do it and I've got it's there, the feelings there that I can pick up the phone, but I'll procrastinate about that because I'm like, oh God, yeah, I need to ring about that and I can't. It's not really an email. I love to send a text. Do you think clients ever feel, yeah, do you think clients ever feel like that when they call us? Oh, probably, yeah, it'd probably be quite daunting, I guess, wouldn't it? You don't know what we're going to be like, or if we're going to be like that's a terrible budget, like, oh, I'm not working on your design, like, right, they might be thinking, please call us if you're thinking about it. Yeah, we won't be mean to you. No, we won't. So actually, one more question about that.
Speaker 1:You know, has the industry changed in your experience since when you started? What aspects have sort of changed? I think the biggest thing that's changed is how many people want to leave school like study interior design or even styling, whatever it is. They've studied in that realm and go straight into their own business. That just wasn't, I mean. I like had ideas that I wanted to do that, but to do it straight out of school. I just couldn't imagine doing that back then. There's just so much. I didn't know, I don't. I actually really I find it fascinating that they have the confidence A to do it. I think social media has probably created that.
Speaker 1:I guess, when I think about it, when social media really had a huge rise and stylists became like a cool thing so I was a stylist before like I'd say stylist and people would go, what, what is that like? What hair stylist? Yeah, no one really knew what it was and, um, you know, I was an interior designer foremost, but then I started to do styling, and styling was just about photography. It wasn't like you know. Now we say stylist and they might be literally they're a decorator, but they call themselves a stylist. So stylist was always you're working on shoots, it might be editorial for magazines or, um, working on sheets for brands. You're in a studio or you're in someone's house or you're building sets like this is what I did, yeah, and I spent a lot of years where that was my main thing I did. I did the occasional interior design project, but it was all styling, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, with social media it became kind of this coveted job right. So I remember the first time I worked with a producer who had hired me on a job and they were telling me that with the rise of social media and the first influencers so the first influencers that came out in the interior world, and if you were a producer or a brand and you saw this person and they were having great engagement and starting to get followers, that was when it became a thing like, oh, they're really popular, look. Oh, they're doing beautiful work. So they'd reach out to them. Now these people have never worked on a shoot before. They've set up a vignette in their house and made it look beautiful. What nobody thought about was they never had any kind of time pressure to do that. They weren't in a commercial environment.
Speaker 1:So you'd get the influencer stylist on a commercial shoot and there's a story that a few of us know, which is a true story, where they hired an influencer stylist I'll call them that and they had their budget. So, say, you had like a $500 prop budget or something and they went out and bought like a George Jensen bars or something and one other thing to style a house and turned up to the shoot and they're like, well, where's all the stuff? And they're like, oh, where's all the stuff? And I'm like, oh, you only gave me this much budget and this is all I could buy. And we don't. That's not what we do, right?
Speaker 1:I hope that Vaz did a lot of heavy lifting. I think he was probably in every shot. We'll put it upside down in this shot. We'll hang it from the roof in this shot. We'll lay it down in the bath here. Oh my God, this shot. We'll lay it down in the bath here. Oh my god, yeah, so and then didn't know how to, you know, set up a shot and wanted a long time to set up a shot. So I think that there was like a time where they were getting a lot of work and then people went, oh, hang on, this isn't actually. They're not the same thing. You know, commercial stylists work very hard.
Speaker 1:Photographic styling is probably one of the most stressful jobs you can do it. It sounds really glamorous. I find it so stressful. It's really stressful. The pressure of everyone no, not for me. There's like all these different levels of pressure you know not to name. Probably one of the biggest ones financially is I can be on a big shoot and have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of furniture on a location. That's all my responsibility. So, and I know stylists photographic stylists who've given it up literally just because one too many things got damaged not by them necessarily, but on set. Yeah, someone scratched something or it was delivered, maybe the delivery people broke it, but because you loaned it, you're responsible. So it is. It's incredibly stressful and yeah, that was so that.
Speaker 1:So I guess back to the original question, because you know I've digressed, but it is relevant. That's probably the biggest thing that's changed is the rise of social media people recognizing that a stylist is not now they're a decorator. So when you say styling, even if you're approaching someone for a project, you need to make sure you're approaching a stylist that's done. Photography work, like it's a completely different environment than decorating job, for instance. So that's probably the biggest change. And then, just like everyone wanting to work for themselves, the rise of that is huge.
Speaker 1:I guess it's a generational thing too, but I would encourage you, if you are going out of school for the first time, just work for like a year. Even the stuff you learn working for other people, I think it's invaluable. I'm not discouraging you from working for yourself. I think there's obviously a lot of pros, but, god, there's a lot of cons too. You and I both know that it's expensive running your own business. It really is. Yeah, it's hugely expensive. And it's hugely expensive to try and scale and have people come and work for you and invest time in them, even on a freelance level, and they don't always work out, or you know, they're always going to learn from you and then move on and I always accept that's what you know. I've had some amazing assistants over the years and they've all got careers in their own right now and I still talk to them, we're still friends and all of that. So that's sort of I guess that's rewarding as well.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's very stressful and and yes, probably the biggest pro is flexibility, especially as parents. It was probably hugely significant when my kids were younger. Now they kind of take care of themselves, but you've got the flexibility to work your own hours. But then the massive con to that is you can be working all the time, like whenever you're not doing something else, you're working, or you've got to work because you're trying to always get ahead of it. And then you've got to also be the marketing manager, the social media manager, the bookkeeper, the accountant. You've got to wear all those roles in a in a sole trader type of business. But so, yeah, I'm like I forgot, I've forgotten. Now, whatever the question was, I think I addressed it. No, that's perfect. Oh, I love it. I just think it's, yeah, just really interesting how the industry has changed. You know, what would you say? What do you think your it's changed like? What do you think is your? I think you're right.
Speaker 1:The education piece, you know, and as you said it right up the at the top, it was, um, really, really hard to get into the interior design courses. There was only a small handful. Yeah, there's more of them now too, right At different levels. So many more, and they're all private. Well, not all of them. A lot of them are privately run. So it just means that anyone can study an interior design course if you want to. So it's a lot more interior designers coming into the industry. Yeah, um, and you know, people have different reasons for studying as well. Not everybody is going to start their own business, but that's been a huge big difference. I think.
Speaker 1:A lot more kind of hobbies, hobby designers yeah, sounds like a bit of a book down. But what I mean is, I think, people that think they can kind of just dabble in it, and I don't think you can. Well, I mean, if you have, if you want to, if you have the capital to make it a hobby, because it will cost you a lot of money to do that, yes, and it will cost you. You're not. You're not in it because you have to pay bills. That's the difference, right? Yeah, and you know that's that's okay. You might be doing it for your own home or you might be doing it you. You might do the qualification and realize not for me, not what I thought it would be. I thought I'd be out doing things, but I'm behind my computer the whole time.
Speaker 1:That's probably the big difference too is that there are a lot of people now who maybe do their own home, maybe they use even if they've used interior designer. They've realized, oh, I actually really like doing this and there's it's much easier for them to find a way into the industry because there are more courses open to them that are privately run. So you don't have to have, you know, your Terrier, atar, whatever you know. You don't have to do that to get in. You just need to be able to pay for it, right? So there's a lot more entry levels into the design world for people who go oh, I kind of enjoy doing that, and they're not necessarily needing a job, but they have the funds to do it. So you've got a lot more of that, right? Yeah, I think you know, if you are looking at studying interior design, I think that people should do a lot more homework before they sign up to a course. And where do you want to work? All those kind of things. But, yeah, that's, that's changed a lot.
Speaker 1:And also, you know, obviously, as you said, social media, but just access to imagery. Yeah, that's true, as you said, the magazines it was coveted. Magazines were coveted. Now we know so much more about design designers. We know, just, we see so much imagery across our eyeballs every day. It's probably too much. I sometimes also I think, actually this is a good idea. Maybe we should do this.
Speaker 1:I feel like there needs to be social media just for design, because I get distracted by puppies and cats and memes about drinking wine and I don't know, so I feel like that's usually why I'm there. Okay, I'm mostly about Instagram is for inspiration, but half the time I'm scrolling away and politics. You know, I accidentally went into a deep dive and now my algorithm's just feeding me all the politics. It's too heavy and I'm like I need to do a refresh sometimes and just like go find the accounts that I love, that I basically never see, because the rest of the stuff kind of comes into my feed. It'd be good. I guess maybe that's why people have personal accounts, just having this realization.
Speaker 1:Maybe you do, yeah, kind of stick to the businessy stuff and then have the personal one where you do all the memes and the puppies, lots of puppies. They know you like puppies and cows. You know those beautiful cows, the house cows. They've got cows now. Oh well, you know what Indy was watching on YouTube? Somebody cleaning cow feet. Oh, nice, cow hooves. Oh, actually that's a thing. One of my friends went down a very big rabbit hole of watching like yeah, I think it was more horses like scooping the stuff and cleaning up. Yeah, what are you watching? The stuff we have access to, it's insane. Yeah, I think we've digressed a bit. Yeah, sorry, no, that's okay. Okay. So what about some personal and fun things? Do you have a dream client, dead or alive.
Speaker 1:I just thought about this recently too. I mean, before we spoke, we mentioned someone, do we? We have more than one? Yeah, your friend Thelma, ah Well, I was thinking about music. I was like, okay, music, or saying Thelma Plummer, who I met once and now I call her my best friend. Sorry, sorry, th family, hope you're not listening, I'm your stalker. No, she's just beautiful, but I love her music and, I don't know, have a bit of a fangirl for her. And another friend in the industry knew her and we ran into her and they introduced me and I was like beside myself, she's adorable, I just love her. Anyway, love her. Thelma, you need to buy a house or do some renovations or need some styling. I will be your designer. I will probably do it for free, let's face it. So, putting it out there, roughing free interior design, but only for one person, um, but Alva the match. So that's living dead.
Speaker 1:David Bowie oh, imagine, imagine. He's one of my absolute favorite people and even just having conversations with him would be so great, right, and he has amazing taste but takes risks like imagine what you could create. Obviously has budget or did have budget. Oh, that is a great client. Yeah, he's probably, and also I just thought you know he's a. He's kind of like he's just an icon, right, he's so creative, the different evolutions of himself. He's one of the most creative souls and just a beautiful soul and a philosopher and has a great attitude. Yeah, love him. Original, fearless, so ahead of his time. Yeah, that's a great client.
Speaker 1:So, your future and legacy how do you want people to feel when they walk into one of your spaces? Oh, happy, interested, curious. Oh, I want immediate, oh, like joy. But then I want curiosity, because that's probably one of my favorite things is being curious and discovering things and learning stuff. So I want someone to go like, oh, hang on. Oh, what's behind this door? What did she do here? Oh, my God, what a great idea. Oh, I can't believe she put those colors together. Yes, I do get that sense. When I look at your work you know, even your jewel-like styling work it's like, oh, I love that. Next to that, I've never seen that before. Where did she get that from? You know, it's pretty cool. Oh, that's good. That's, yeah, that's definitely.
Speaker 1:Curiosity is, I think, what every human should have to live a good life. That's a great quote. I love that. I think curious people have way more empathy, they love harder, they're better friends, because they'll ask you about yourself. They want to know about the world. Yeah, I think it's like one of the best traits to have.
Speaker 1:I like being curious as well. Yeah, what's the next big dream or goal you're chasing? I'm curious. It is all the small stuff at the moment, the business stuff, because, um, like I said, I haven't done a lot of that and I would like to build a brand a bit more around myself because I think that is a bit of a legacy thing. Like you, you can just kind of like trudge along and do what you want to do, but if you want to have the projects you want and start to take control of your career, you've got to kind of create a bit of a narrative and have some goals around that. So for me at the moment, it's like you know, I keep hitting roadblocks or the admin roadblocks, so I will get past them. Like the, the website I'm trying to switch over to a website and it's just that annoying stuff, so annoying when you have that big dream, yeah, yeah. So it's like you know, getting myself to a point where I have the website and it's great and it's running and the social media is doing what it's supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:And I've got to do a lot more kind of like face to camera stuff, because I enjoy doing that and I'm're so good at it and I'm kind of good at it. You are and I mean, come on, you have the best hair in the biz. Well, that's the legacy. It's just the hair, but so it is a lot of those small things. And then, honestly, it's travelling more.
Speaker 1:I want to do more tours with you. Let's do it. Yeah, you know we are making London happen next year. You know my big one is Mexico that's the next one on the list and then potentially Copenhagen, which is one of your loves. So I want to do more of that. I really enjoy well, obviously, I enjoy your company, otherwise I wouldn't be here but, um, I enjoy us together on those tours and I love the people that we've met and the environment.
Speaker 1:I think, like I really thrive in that space and I think we do a really good job. To be honest, everyone has a good time. To be honest, we do it is pretty special. I think it is pretty special. So I want to do more of that. Yeah, yeah, and I think it's nice just to take that minute just to go. You know, I was talking to my mom and my sister about it the other day and it's like, oh god, like that's, that's my work, how have we? Yeah, isn't it funny how you have those little moments. Yeah, I'm exactly what you mean. To make that a make that a thing? Yes, yeah, and we're doing what we love, right? Yeah, that is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:So I guess that that the small things, but I guess if I was going to do big dream stuff, that's all. I have things that I think are immediately achievable. I have no doubt that that'll all happen. There's probably two things. One would be a collaboration with a brand and creating a range of furniture, homewares, that sort of thing. I'd really like to do that, um. And the second would be to own my own space and be able to properly design and do all of that, which I think is probably most designers' goal. But I've only really been able to do it a couple of times and when I was quite young and didn't have any money and didn't really know what I was doing. Do you know? I built a house. I would have been early 20s. Wow, I built like amons home or something.
Speaker 1:It was like, you know, spec build because, do you remember, they brought out the um first homeowners, yeah, when they first did that. So you could literally have no deposit, yeah, and, and her house. But you had to live in pretty, you had to live in it for a year, where people live yeah, but you also had to live in like far away places. So, yeah, and I grew up up in the, I would say, country, macedon Ranges. So I was like I can do this, fine. So I built a house and because I'm who I am, I drove them crazy because it's like standard spec build.
Speaker 1:And then I'm like, no, I want to do polished concrete, but we're going to come and polish it. So when the slab was laid, we went and marked out all the spaces and polished all the concrete ourselves, like, went out there and polished it all and um, but then they, they painted, and they you know, they sprayed the walls, this brand new house, and didn't cover up any of our polished concrete. So I spent a lot of time out scraping paint and trying to get paint off my polished concrete forms. What idiots. Oh my God, surely they would have noticed. Oh, that's so upsetting. I was so mad because they knew and they just didn't care Because it's just, it was I was.
Speaker 1:I was very annoying because I kept trying to do things that were obviously outside of. I'm very kind of a creative thinker of, like, how do I make this happen even though I can't afford it or whatever it is. So I drove them crazy because I was just not just being like the client that just went, oh, this is nice and this is pretty and this is what I paid for. I was always like, well, if we did it like this, and then they'd be like, well, that's not what we do. I'm like, yeah, but you could do it. So that, yeah, I wouldn't ever do, probably, a spec build again unless I had a really great collaboration happening. Maybe that's what I need do, do a great collaboration with a spec builder and have my own range of homes and I'll just build one of those. Just have a range of homes.
Speaker 1:I love that, though I mean you doing a range of homes is actually I can see that you doing a furniture line, that's a no-brainer, and having your own space to design and to live in, that's got to happen. I love that Achievable. Yeah, we'd put them into the universe. And yeah, I'm not asking to go to the moon or anything. I don't want to go there. I don't think they've got any nice interiors or any good furniture there I think. So it would be kind of interesting to design a space station. That would be a big challenge. I'm reading a book called atmosphere about that at the moment. So good, she's an astronaut. Yeah, all right, so I think we might wrap that up.
Speaker 1:That was such a fun chat. I can't believe we only just thought of doing that. I know, well, you thought of it, I didn't think of it. Well, I'll have my turn next. Yes, um, but yeah, thank you for listening. And yeah, thanks everyone. Thanks Listening to me again. That was fun, brie, thank you. See you later. Bye. We've got the utmost respect for the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. They're the OG custodians of this unceded land and its waters, where we set up shop, create and call home and come to you. From this podcast today, a big shout out to all of the amazing elders who have walked before us, those leading the way in the present and the emerging leaders who will carry the torch into the future. We're just lucky to be on this journey together.