Design Anatomy
Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we examine the world of interiors and design. With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled, and lived-in spaces, Bree Banfield and Lauren Li are excited to share their insights and inspiration with you.
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Design Anatomy
Celebrating 25 Years of David Hicks: A Legacy of Timeless Design
Symmetry, structure, warmth, and a sense of materiality that's instantly recognisable – these are the hallmarks of David Hicks' approach to design, a philosophy he's refined over an impressive 25-year career. We sit down with this influential Australian designer to trace his evolution from what critics once described as "minimalist purity" to what he now calls "decorative minimalism."
David's journey began with his own apartment in Melbourne's converted Red Tulip Factory, a project that established his meticulous approach to design. Working with a grid system based on 600mm terrazzo tiles, he created a space where every joinery line aligned perfectly with tile grout – a detail-driven approach that still guides his work today. What makes this particularly fascinating is that this career-launching project was created in the pre-Google era, using dial-up internet and hand-drawn plans, when inspiration came from face-to-face networking rather than endless scrolling.
The conversation shifts to how dramatically the design industry has transformed over David's career. Where designers once waited eagerly for monthly magazines or trade representatives bearing materials from international shows, today's instantaneous access to global design via social media has changed how designers work, often prioritising two-second visual impact over thoughtful functionality. Despite these shifts, David has maintained his commitment to balancing what he calls "discipline" (technical expertise in space planning and detailing) with "intuition" (the creative, decorative elements).
After completing over 800 apartments, 75 homes and 125 retail projects, David opens up about what actually keeps a design practice thriving – and it's not what most people imagine. The reality of an interior designer's daily life involves far more administration than fabric selection, though he remains passionate about expanding his creative reach through new collaborations, including an upcoming tapware collection.
For aspiring designers or anyone fascinated by the evolution of Australian design, this candid conversation offers invaluable insights into staying relevant while remaining true to your authentic vision with one of the best in the industry.
Check out David's socials below
Instagram : @davidhicksdesign
Web: https://davidhick
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If you're sitting at your desk about to send a fee proposal and you'd just like to run it by someone else first? Or have you ever had a client dilemma and it just doesn't feel right but no one you know understands (except for the dog)?
And do you wonder why you're not raking it in when you're practically living at your desk, busting your creative chops 'round the clock?
These are the things we're diving into with a small group of designers just like you. And so much more in THE DESIGN SOCIETY
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You might know his book, a Private World of Interiors, or you may have spotted his own apartment gracing the cover of Elle Decoration UK back in the day. That project pretty much announced to the world, david Hicks, has arrived. He's known for his signature style, once described as minimalist purity, now evolved into what he calls decorative minimalism. Evolved into what he calls decorative minimalism Think symmetry, structure, warmth and a structural sense of materiality that's instantly recognizable. We are very excited to have David here to reflect on his 25 years in design, talk about how the industry's changed and also share a few insights into how he stayed at the top of his game. So if you're a design lover, a detail obsessive or just someone who believes a well-placed sconce can change your whole day, if not life, you're going to love this it changes your life, for sure I know right, we all get it here.
Speaker 1:It's a safe space. So thank you so much for meeting with us, David.
Speaker 2:Pleasure. Thank you so much for meeting with us.
Speaker 1:David Pleasure, Thank you so much for having me. So 25 years in design that's such a huge accomplishment, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is, and I think I mean it's even longer than that, because you obviously have art study and then I worked for another company while I was studying, and then probably for about four years before I started my own practice. So it's basically most of my life really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you. So when you look back at your very first project, which was your own apartment, is that right?
Speaker 2:It was yeah. What do you still love about?
Speaker 1:it. I'm curious what do you still love about it and what would you change?
Speaker 2:Look, I don't think I would change anything. I think that it was. You know there's something to be said about being a little green. You know you don't have any sort of preconceived ideas about. You know what's going to be accepted, what's marketable, what is your signature? Look, all of these things that you, you know added pressures that you put on yourself as you go through working for longer periods of time. So I think it was really a great establishing sort of what I'm about and it was very detail-driven.
Speaker 2:It was a very small space, it was only about 110 square meters and it was an apartment in the Red Tulip Factory, which was in Prahran in Melbourne. So I bought a shell and I wanted to keep it very open. So there was no doors except for the front door and the door to the bathroom, and I wanted to kind of have it a bit sort of like a, you know, very open, sort of gallery-like space. But then you know, have the bedroom still a bit separated and the study still a bit separated. So my starting point for the design was a grid and I chose a terrazzo tile, 600 by 600. And so I gridded up the floor and then I worked out the joinery to sit within that grid. So all of the lines in the joinery aligned with the tile grout and then part of the joinery would separate the bedroom from the living room.
Speaker 2:And part of the kitchen joinery separated the main sort of living area from the study. It sounds relatively straightforward but it was actually quite difficult because you know if you have a 600 tile that's too small for like a walkway, or you know, an entrance into another room, whereas two of them 1,200, is probably too big.
Speaker 1:Especially in a small space. Right yeah, especially in a small space.
Speaker 2:For me, the project was more about the architectural side of design. It was because the actual you know, visual design was very stripped back, so there was only a couple of materials. It was very minimal, which is what I really liked at the time.
Speaker 2:So in terms of that I wouldn't change anything because I still think now it's relevant and it's a space that I could easily go back and live in now and it would still look. You know, it could have been done two years ago, so that's very cool Something to be said, I think, about the you know, spatial planning and really good detailing and careful choice of materials. So that kind of set me up, I think, for the rest of my career in terms of ensuring that spaces work really well, that they're timeless, that you know the detail that's incorporated really finesses everything and materials chosen are also not sort of trend led or materials or colors that are going to go out of date. So, yeah, I think, when you don't have any other sort of ideas, you don't have Instagram you don't have. You know, this was before Google.
Speaker 1:It's so wild, isn't it? Yeah, it's crazy. How did we even survive?
Speaker 2:Well, I had a birthday dinner for my 25th year in business and it was really funny because in my speech I was talking about when I started in my study, my apartment, I had dial-up internet. I had like just a landline, a fax, and everything was drawn by hand. Yeah, in fact, yeah and um, I was. I also said that google had only been around for a year, right, and so I think there was a few younger people there and I think one of them said to me well, how did you find stuff? Right? It's fine stuff, I don't know, but but that I think I think the networking became really important.
Speaker 1:Maybe I mean it still is now, but I think we would all talk about stuff, or you and those shows the I feel like you know trade shows were way more anticipated and important for discovering new things, and even just having great architectural reps that would come and go. Hey, this is new, so there's probably a lot more kind of face-to-face discovery than now.
Speaker 2:We'd go like yeah, I think all of that was a lot more exciting because you know, especially with the reps that would come and they'll be like you know, I've just been in Paris, I've just been in Milan and this is like the new stuff and you haven't seen it because it hasn't been on Instagram.
Speaker 1:It was exciting.
Speaker 2:It was exciting and I remember they used to come and do like lunchtime presentation once a week and everyone would just be like, oh wow, like you'd have a new material or a new product or a new whatever. So it was actually quite an interesting stage to be a designer because, like I said, you don't have like it's more sort of limited on what you can use and do. So I think you were more creative with using a simple palette, whereas now I think, with overexposure, a lot of design is about the image, like how it's going to look.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree Not so much about how it actually works or the quality of it, or you know how you interact with it.
Speaker 1:It's more you know it's got to pack a punch for like two seconds. It's so true, it's so different, isn't it? And it's really interesting what you said sort of in the beginning as well, that you would still go into that apartment and enjoy it. And you know it is something about designing back before you know social media and let alone Google, but you trusted your own instinct more, I feel, and because you didn't have so many influences just constantly in your face all the time, like you'd sit down with a magazine and be really intentional. So I don't know, I feel like it's strange because I studied at RMIT oh my gosh, so long ago, 1998, 1999. And that was getting the magazines and stuff. And when I moved house I found some of my old assignments and I was like I actually still really enjoy that what I did back then. But it's something about staying true to your own style and what that is. I think it was easier back then.
Speaker 1:I think it was easier because you wouldn't get, maybe and this might not be the right word but confused by things that you're seeing that are popular or getting attention on social media.
Speaker 2:So you wouldn't be kind of like influenced by that right, I think. If you want to call it trends which is, I think, just a word I'm using to describe it If you want to call it that, it was, there was longer periods. It was like fashion back then. There was longer periods that things were relevant.
Speaker 1:It was, there was longer periods.
Speaker 2:It was like fashion back then. There was longer periods that things were relevant. So you know that was in an era that was quite minimal anyway, because it was in the sort of nineties after the massive crash of the end of the eighties. So all of the opulence and everything was was not really a thing to incorporate into design and it was very much about you, that john porson, london minimal sort of anti-decoration, almost anti-design, and it was really about pragmatics and architectural forms and things like that.
Speaker 2:So I think that was also really embraced in australia because we didn't have a lot of access to products and information that europeans or americans did. So I think in that way I think it really started to form a very unique Australian take on design, whereas now, you know, I can see on my phone in bed in the morning like what's just been launched in New York or Milan five hours ago or whatever. So I think in terms of what you're saying it's correct, like you deviate from where you're at and what you're doing because things are changing like hourly. They're not changing like monthly or twice a year like they used to. They actually change every day like there's something new.
Speaker 1:So it's very hard to stay focused. It's funny how you know, like, because part of what I do is looking at trends and what's happening and what's developing and I can look back at that stage where I would wait with anticipation for that big, thick fashion mag I had all the runway stuff in it because we relied a lot on fashion then to predict trends and I wouldn't see it. Now I see it exactly like you said. I can pick up my phone and see it five hours after in the morning and kind of like dissect it, but I would wait for that magazine and like devour that and that's how we do it. So everything just took much longer to see and to develop. And now we see it before it's even actually happened, particularly in Australia, because it takes a long time for say everything we see in Milan to actually arrive here and then start to have an impact on that.
Speaker 2:Do you also think, though, that you know when you used to get the magazine? You would probably really study it and you know the image was probably bigger, but now, like you see a small image because most people use the phone, you see a small image. You probably look at it for one or two seconds, you know, and then you move on to the next image. So I don't think anyone's really sort of looking at or analysing the quality or how things are made or how they're put together.
Speaker 1:That's true. I would say I'm probably not the typical person, because it depends what it is. I definitely do a lot of analysing and I go back to things and I do a bit of a rabbit hole deep, diving to stuff that I think is important.
Speaker 2:Are you a screenshotter and enlarger?
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also the screenshots on my phone are out of control. I actually need to go back because you know when you go back and go, I don't even know what that was Like. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think you're right, david, like I remember, you know you'd buy a magazine which was an investment when you're a student and it was quite formative, like what magazine you happen to pick up and I would look through through every page. I would even color photocopy some pages that I really liked and I used to be used to get like a really fleshed out sort of um, you know, almost home to a way you could sort of virtually almost piece the photos together to create how the floor plan worked like yeah, I agree, but now you what you say, you just flip through, you, flip through, you, flip through it's very surface level um yeah, but yeah, it's a different.
Speaker 1:It's just a different world, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's a whole different way of looking at things, yeah, and I think that it's a little bit dangerous in a way, because I think that people are judging things so quickly and you know, especially in design, and it's really now about the impact, it's not really about anything else yeah, no so is that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, where is it going? Do you know what I mean? Like, because I've I've seen things on Instagram that are all over Instagram that think, wow, that's so beautiful, like it might be a boutique hotel in Paris or something like that. And then when you go there and you actually look at it in real life and you think it's actually not put together very well, you I kind of get a little bit let down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the smoke and mirrors thing that we were talking about before.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what I guess. A whole big part of my job is also photographic styling, and even in a real house the shots you see are usually not that representative of the real home, unless it just happens to shoot beautifully because we might move a chair into a corner where you would never have that chair and just to create a magic moment for the image. So yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:They are very different things, but but it's also the technology that's influencing it. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's also talking about that. It's also the technology now that allows you to. You know photoshop things. You know, you might only have one chair, but you could take a photo and place it in different spots around the table and then overlay all the photos, so that you have four chairs.
Speaker 1:It's so ridiculous, isn't it what we do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when we used to shoot projects, we used to'll be all be shot on film. But you know, when you're setting up and to do a proof to see what the setup and everything is, like you do a polaroid right because it was film. You couldn't actually see the image, and then you can't really photoshop the film, so it was what you saw is actually what the space was yes, you could trust it now you can't trust anything you see with ai and everything yeah, it's not so much trust, but I don't think that.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you see houses now magazines that are clearly completely styled, like they've brought a whole truckload of stuff in and they've styled the house and moved all the other furniture out. And if you look at, you know some magazines that have, you know, say, six projects in it you can actually see the same stylist has done all the projects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah well, or it might not even be the same stylist, it can just be from the same showrooms because and I can pick that too, because I know exactly what's out there having to do that sourcing so sometimes I'll pick up a um, a magazine and I'll go well, I know that's not actually in the house, because that particular color and fabric is from the showroom and they would have loaned it and put it in. So there is, I mean, yeah, there's kind of that. I guess a fine line between what you're looking at in terms of is that the whole project, because it depends where you go. I know you sort of go into that decorating as well as design, whereas a lot of projects are just kind of the architect and then it's whatever the homeowner had. So they have to bring in a styles to be able to shoot it properly yeah because they don't even have.
Speaker 1:No one's done that part of the work, so the styles kind of does that part of the work to an extent yeah but um, yeah, the polaroid thing. I've only ever done one shoot. My very first shoot was with polaroid, so I was just at the end of that, wouldn't it be cool?
Speaker 2:to get your hands on those. We used to do a lot of retail and we used to have, because there was no such thing as like led or anything like that. It was all like fluoro tubes, and we used to have to go in probably about two or three hours before we started the shoot and wrap all of the tubes with like yellow plastic, with some kind of film that then made the light warm so it didn't look like 7-Eleven.
Speaker 1:Really, because I think that's how I know your work through your retail projects like Alana Hill and like back in the day, right they? Were absolutely stunning, those stores and what was another? One that you did on Chapel Street, oh my.
Speaker 2:God, we did everyone at some stage. You did you really were across everything we did, um, we did a lot for caliber, but then I know alana hill, uh, we did some stuff for witchery. We did all of the king furniture showroom. Oh, my god, we used to do a lot of retail yeah but right back in the beginning, like with certain stores, that's what we used to have to do. We used to have to like gel, everything that's so funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really different time. It is a different time. And those alana hills stores so that just stands out to me because they were an absolute treat to visit those jeans, the patina liano jeans they were like that the low jeans.
Speaker 2:Oh I know, look, it was really it was interesting doing the alana stores because it's not really something that you would associate with what I do. But it was a lot of fun because I could use the same sort of principles and detailing and knowledge with space planning and retail design in those projects but then also really explore the decorative colourful side as well.
Speaker 2:So I mean, if you look at those projects against my other projects and don't look at the colours and the textures, you'll see a lot of the same kind of like detailing and you know that more. A lot of the same kind of like detailing and you know that more precise kind of modernist designer study.
Speaker 1:Well, this is really interesting and I was curious to know with your work because you know you were talking about your apartment, which was quite a minimalist apartment, the project that kind of launched your career, would you say.
Speaker 2:Look, I don't know whether it launched my career, but it certainly was. You know what do they say when you start, when a designer or architect starts their business, you always do stuff for family or friends, or you know things like that. So I think it was something amazing to have, but I think that generally for a lot of people it was probably too confronting, Like a lot of people wouldn't want to live in a space like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then, on the other hand, as you were saying, you know your Alana Hills stores, which were more decorative, and it's really interesting that you do both equally as strong. Yeah, Was there like a go for it? It's the same fundamentals.
Speaker 2:It's the same fundamentals that I use in my projects and then like because I look at it as three separate things. So I look at it as architecture, then interior design, but then I look at it as decoration, so you know the finishes, that you choose on materials and the colors and things like that.
Speaker 2:They're really more decorative. You know interior design is. You know designing of joinery and designing of. You know how the floor pattern is going to be, but then you choose the stone or the different materials that have the colour and the pattern. So then there's a more architectural side which deals with the planning, and you know how you integrate services like mechanical or structural engineering or things like that. So I always look at it as those three things working as one.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And at the end of those three things working as one, yeah.
Speaker 2:And at the end of the day, they are one. If you have that yeah, I mean, if you have that you can then the first two stages are pretty similar, so the architectural stage and the interior design stage, but then the decorative stage is what allows you to play and change things.
Speaker 2:So you know you could have like a plain fabric on the wall, or you could have like an outrageous fabric on the wall. So that's what switches things up and that's where I probably didn't have much knowledge on the decorative side of things when I started, and it's something that I've really sort of taught myself and learned about as I progressed through my career, because I think that's a really important part of design and it's becoming a lot more important. It never used to be so. I think the word decoration now is not like as dirty as it used to be. When I started, you were either an architect, you were either an interior designer or you were either a decorator.
Speaker 2:You were never all three together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've talked about this before. We have Back, then I would have been really insulted if people had called me a decorator. Yeah, and I used to explain to people no, no, no, I'm not a decorator, like I'm an interior designer and like tried to tell what the difference because people, I think, associated them as the same thing if you weren't in the industry. But now I couldn't care less, because I think decorating actually can be more fun sometimes.
Speaker 2:But you also see the 360 as well. Like you see all of the architects now and they'll have architecture and interior design. Yeah, because they don't want to miss out on.
Speaker 1:They used to be looking down on us while we looked down on the decorators Correct.
Speaker 1:But I also think, you know, I think if you've studied architecture, they look down hopefully not so much anymore, but they might look down on decorators but they think they can do that. They think that because they're architects they can do that. And I actually think that decoration is such a specialist skill you know where we're talking about when we started this chat. You've got this sublime fabric hanging in your background, that data, data fabric, like working with fabrics, working with proportion and scale and all of those things a decorator does, like I mean, I would be terrified if you asked me to measure up a window. Yeah, it's just not my skill set. So I think that it's really nice to see that decoration has as you said it's not like a dirty word what it used to be.
Speaker 1:I feel, like it's really changed but it's also mean.
Speaker 2:Decoration is like hundreds and hundreds of years old. It's like you know. It's just not really taught anymore. There is so much knowledge to be learned about the decorative arts, you know, which a lot of designers don't know about you know, it's like periods of furniture. It's like how specific furniture, why it was finished in a certain way. You know it's like periods of furniture. It's like how specific furniture, why it was finished in a certain way. You know, periods of fabric how is it woven, what materials are woven out of? You know, does it?
Speaker 1:shrink or does it not shrink? There's so much to know.
Speaker 2:It just goes on and on and on. It's like architecture and design. It's like also something that there's just so much history and so much to learn about, something that there's just so much history and so much to learn about. And I think, as I've progressed through my career, I've kind of taken the thought that it's better to know as much as possible, even the things you don't like or don't want to implement, because you know you can. Then, if a client wants to implement something or use something, you can then actually tell them the story about it and why you don't want to use it and be more authoritative about something. Yes, so I think you know. It's like the old saying knowledge is power 100 so good um.
Speaker 1:I'm watching the gilded age at the moment. Have you watched that? Yeah, I have to wait for more episodes, though I know like it's not really an era that I would have been drawn to, but I mean, you have to appreciate how incredible it is, and I think that the way that design is taught and architecture is taught in Australia, it starts at the Bauhaus, yeah, and we're just missing out on so much. So, yeah, I totally agree what you say there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that, though I mean what you were saying is, I think that it's also a reflection on, I suppose, how young Australia is and we don't have such a vast history of architecture and design and decoration. So, I think you know we don't go too much further back, sort of mid-century or 20s, because we don't have a lot of that history.
Speaker 1:If you do go down Chapel Street, as we sort of mentioned, like there are 1880s, if you look at the dates on the top of the buildings, you know, there was a huge, yeah, a whole. I just wonder if we value it enough here, the history of anything like you know when you I'm going up on a slight tangent and I'll put it back, but you know the amount of even just beautiful buildings, residential buildings, that will be knocked down and not looked after and we're going to lose a lot of that, I think.
Speaker 2:Oh, we've already lost so much Like, if you look at old photos of St Kilda Road and Toorak Road. There were mansions all the way down. Yeah Well, I mean even on Toorak Road, you know opposite Faulkner Park there's this incredible mansion.
Speaker 1:Even on Toorak Road, you know, opposite Faulkner Park there's this incredible mansion and they've kept. We might keep a facade, but then we absolutely gut the interior yeah, I was so cross to see what they'd done.
Speaker 1:I was like what about the staircase that was there? What about all of the mouldings inside? Is that is the exterior, the only thing that's going, and part of that is. I think part of that is and I guess you see it to some extent in the UK where it's just so much money to maintain some of these buildings that there's no one putting the money into it because nobody cares enough about it or it's been let go to the point where it can't be maintained without a huge influx of cash or it costs so much to maintain it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know, that's why you see in the countryside probably more so in Italy and France is that you know they're basically trying to give these houses away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you almost need to spend more on it, right, it's going to cost you five or ten million to bring it back to life. So they see that, as that was in that episode, the series, the White Lotus series in Italy. That was the whole thing about why they looked like they were all cashed up and had money but actually that was so broke because they were putting all the money in to try and maintain just that home.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:So, david, I'm so curious because I've been in business for 12 years not as long as you, but I've been an interior designer for a bit longer than that. How do you stay creatively energized after designing 800 or so apartments, 75 homes and 125 retail spaces Not that I'm counting. That's some stats for you. Bloody hell, I know when I was putting them together.
Speaker 2:When I was putting them together, when I was putting them together for my um birthday speech, it was like because we're counting up all the projects, because you know we've got like the full history of everything, and I just thought, wow, okay, well, no wonder I'm exhausted explains a lot yeah, did you find your sleep in?
Speaker 1:between all of that, did you find your creativity? Does it ebb and flow, or is it kind of steady? Or how do you maintain that you know that energy?
Speaker 2:uh, I think it is. I think the energy is more in um, you know, constantly keeping the business going and, and you know, getting jobs and sort of perfecting the, the art of client experience and expectations and all of that. So I think that's where a lot of the drive is for me. But in terms of creativity, I kind of it's more subconscious for me. Like I don't like, say, I'm going to Milan, I mean I don't take a lot of photos. I don't like um, because you know, like you said before, I mean all you do is end up with them all on your phone and you can't find them anyway so.
Speaker 2:I think for me it's more. It's more like intuitive, so like I might be sitting down and looking at a concept and then I might think oh, I actually saw that, you know doorway in Milan and or I saw this on Instagram or, and it kind of comes back and then I look at incorporating it. But you know, that's just the way that I work. It's like even in client meetings I don't write anything down and people get really kind of a little bit funny about that because they think is he really listening to me?
Speaker 2:Is he going?
Speaker 1:to remember.
Speaker 2:So that's the way I kind of work.
Speaker 1:Like I kind of retain information. It's cool. I agree with that, with the Milan thing or with that inspiration, probably even to an extent. You know, even though I am a screenshotter, I hardly ever look back at those things, but I guess if you've taken a moment to take interest in it, it makes some kind of imprint on you and I think that's how we, I guess, make something new of the things we see and not just copy what they are. There's those, all those little moments kind of sink in and then you kind of come out with something that's maybe influenced by those things but is different and I think that's a particular way of working.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's some other people that might have big boards and like pin everything to the boards and you know, make a story, you know, which is fine. It's just not the way that I do things.
Speaker 2:So, I mean, I keep the creativity by. You know traveling and learning about you know the decorative arts and going to flea markets and you know really researching things, like I might see something on Instagram or in a magazine and think, oh, that's really interesting. But rather than retain that image, I will actually go on Google and, you know, really try and learn more about that. So, it then becomes a bit more ingrained rather than just keeping an image. So I'm a little bit more into the history behind things than just the image.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. You've said, design is both about the discipline and intuition, which is kind of like a little what you're saying. But how?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 1:know whether to be guided by that intuition versus the discipline.
Speaker 2:I think there's different roles that they play into a project. So for me, discipline would probably be more about the space planning and the detail and learning how things are going to work together, so even down to thicknesses of materials and how can they be used and how are they actually fixed to the wall or the floor and what's the edge like and how's that going to be when it cuts into something else so I think that is kind of the more rigorous side of it.
Speaker 2:And then I think the intuitive side is a bit more um, of the free um freeness of it which is you know, you're not. You know, when you're looking at materials and everything and you're not sure about what to use and things like that, your intuition kind of takes over and starts to put all of those more decorative things together. So I think for me they sort of play off each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah, you can't just be like, oh, I'm going to use my intuition to judge that that support is going to be enough to hold the it's so true, though, I feel like being good at the details, so you can have amazing intuition and concepts and all of that stuff, but if you don't have the discipline side, understanding how materials work and can come together I think it's really hard to get all that detailing beautifully. You know, like precise.
Speaker 1:And that's what for your projects. That definitely stands out as something you know that you do very well is the details, and then there's the layer of that intuition kind of over the top of it. So it kind of gives this sort of structure to your projects in a way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I also think that you know you can have a good idea and put together a great concept and you know it could be absolutely phenomenal, but if you can't deliver it, then is it a good idea? I don't know. Like no one's gonna see it, so great.
Speaker 2:There is a lot more to interior design than creating some beautiful mood boards yeah, well, exactly, I mean, when people say what do you do and I say interior design, they go oh wow, like you know, I've always wanted to do that. How amazing it must be so much fun, right? And then I think, I think if you saw what I did, 90% of the day you wouldn't want to be an interior designer oh, it grieves.
Speaker 1:It's like it is fun most of the time and obviously we wouldn't do it if we didn't love it and I don't think that would show in in the quality of the work if you didn't have the love. But people don't understand that it's not all just no, this is pretty and like, sometimes exactly mean.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I feel like I'm a. What do I say to the guys in office? I say I feel like I'm a desk clerk, like you know, with all my paperwork and you know, returning emails.
Speaker 1:I know that feeling.
Speaker 2:You know it's stapling things together and putting them in trays and it's you know, and then for 10 minutes that day I might look at some fabrics.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it so. Percent it's yeah, it's very, very different, I think, to what people perceive. And I've had your team. Sorry, how many people do you have on your team, david?
Speaker 2:so there's only three of us um that's nice. I've always kept that yeah I've always kept the office really small um. I think the most we've been over 25 years is seven um. But I because I like to be very heavily involved in all the projects same, not just design, but in project management and client interface as well. I've kept the office small to enable me to do that, because I like the whole process. I don't want to end up just doing like 10% of the process or just managing staff, managing people like that's or there's that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not for me. Yeah, yeah, not for me. So when you said before, like 90%.
Speaker 1:You know that they don't see. What is that 90%? What does that look like? You know you mentioned a desk clerk swimming in emails, which I feel like an absolute avalanche of emails every day. But I'm curious like what does your day-to-day look like? I'm curious like what does your day-to-day look like?
Speaker 2:So you know it can be anything really, but a lot of the time it's, you know, like marking things up, marking up details, marking up drawings. You know sending people CAD files putting together drop boxes. You know. Writing information for media to do press stories can be, some accounting can be, you know it could be anything like that. It's not necessarily standing around and putting light samples together and creating a concept.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I had a client meeting the other day and there I was literally doing the interior decorating thing, waving around a fabric hanger, and she said, oh my, my gosh, you have the best job, you're so lucky. All these fabrics, these tiles, and and this client she works in corporate, she's got a really high pressure job and she's really like so intelligent and I'm just like, oh my god, this is like you're waving around a fabric. It's like your job is insane to me, like you are just next level. So it's. And it is funny, isn't it? That perception it's like this is is insane to me, like you are just next level. And it is funny, isn't it, that perception it's like this is the only time I literally wave around a fabric is to show you what it's going to look like. Every other time I'm behind my screen or all the things you said drop boxes and going nuts with all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But it's like you know you're waving around the fabric and if they say something like that, it's like do you know how many other fabrics I had to look at just to bring you this one fabric?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was going to say 100 billion. There is such a thing as fabric overwhelm. I find fabrics, I love them, but I can walk into a showroom and just in the end walk out feeling worse than I did when I walked in. Unless you just found that thing. Like that's it.
Speaker 2:It can just be so many things and when and I like too many of them, so you've got to try to like. You know, yeah, or you know that the other funny thing about it as well is, like you know you might be looking for, say, a red velvet, but then you look at about 50 red velvets but they're not the right red and you know it's like having a massive ward, it's like having a massive wardrobe and going in there and like complaining I've got nothing to wear.
Speaker 1:I know, I'm like there's something wrong with me, because you guys have got 1,000 different types of red there. I must be able to find it here, but I can't. There's something wrong with me. What about that extra 10%? What's the stuff that you love doing?
Speaker 2:Well, I actually like all of the other part as well, the process part, but I do love, I love like I do hand sketching. I love putting together like material palettes and looking at different finishes and materials I also really enjoy. I do a lot of detailing by hand before the guys put onto the computer, so I like sort of working through and thinking about how something's going to be put together.
Speaker 1:I still do that too. Maybe it comes from learning that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's more. I think the really enjoyable parts are the more you know doing things with your hands almost because I don't know how to use CAD, so I'm very much a print it out and read it kind of person, or, you know, sketch it with a pen, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love it. I have kind of upped my game slightly in this. I like to. I'm a sketcher too. It's just how I get everything from here out of I don't know. I don't know how else to communicate, but I now do it on my iPad, so at least it's digital, so it's easy to kind of put it into documents and things instead of better on paper though it's weird, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I find that sorry.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say I might do like a quick sketch on a piece of paper and go, oh yep, I'll do that now, and then I'd go to do it on the iPad and it's never as good no, I know that it's.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, it's funny like the way that you you've taught yourself over the years because even even like when I get you know documents sent to me or you know, say, a legal document or something like that, like you know how people like do it on the screen and they'll put like a comment box or whatever, I always like print it out red pen all over it, cross it out, scan it, send it back People hate it.
Speaker 1:I just feel like it sinks into your brain better when you see it on a piece of paper. I don't know, I miss stuff on the screen. So do I miss stuff on the screen? So apparently that's an actual fact, like they've done tech.
Speaker 2:They've done, you know, research into it and it is, yeah, you read a book as opposed to a screen.
Speaker 1:You take more of it in yeah.
Speaker 2:So coming back to your question, what? What's? The things I enjoy most is the things that I do by hand or you know, like sketching or looking at materials, putting material palettes together, so it's things I'm not really doing on a computer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear yeah With your book A Private World of Interiors that was released. Was it 2016 or something? When was that?
Speaker 2:Oh God, I think so.
Speaker 1:A little while ago, yeah. Is there like a project in that that really stands out, that you're like, oh my God, that was like really special. Can you play favorites?
Speaker 2:you were like oh my god, that was like really special. Can you play favorites?
Speaker 1:I find it very hard to play favorites um trying to think of the projects in there and sometimes they're favorite for different reasons, like sometimes I've had projects where I really enjoyed working with the client and when it came to photographing it I wanted to include some of their pieces and stuff, but then pitching it to press. They didn't really pick it up but I was like I still love that project. It's not always just about how it looks in the photos. At the end of the day it's like the people and how cool they were and how much they love their home. It's fulfilling in a different way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I think there's a couple in there where we designed the building, the interior and did the decoration. So I think for me there's two houses in there that have that full, you know, rounding off of what we do, and I think they're very fulfilling because you can kind of sculpt the whole project from start to end and you're not relying on other consultants like another architect or you know a stylist, or sorry, you're not relying on other external people.
Speaker 2:So I think there's a couple of those where I think, oh wow, they're just really, really amazing projects because we were able to be involved in everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not control freaks at all. I get it.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. We want to do it all we want to have our hands on everything. And yeah, yeah, I mean, there's also another project in there, which is a beautiful old house, and we mainly did decorative works to it. I would say it's more of a decorative project than an interior project, but that I also love, like I love the whole process of really getting into, like you know, all the fabrics and the furniture and custom furniture you know wallpaper and curtains and it was really refreshing not to have to.
Speaker 2:It was refreshing to start with something amazing and then just add that embellishment to it without changing the original house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool If you could travel back to young David fresh out of RMIT. What advice would you give him before he started his practice?
Speaker 2:Go back and study banking.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious. Why that is so funny?
Speaker 2:um, because I don't, like we were saying before, I don't think people realize how hard it actually is what we do, and it's something that you have to have a passion for to stay in this industry. I agree it's not so true it's. It's an industry that you can have a great business and a great life and all that sort of stuff, but it's not something to do if you want to make a stack load of money.
Speaker 1:So you know it was a bit of a joke.
Speaker 2:It's so funny I probably wouldn't have done anything else. I mean, it's the only thing that I've ever wanted to do?
Speaker 1:You could have studied banking or, like you know, stocks and all of that and then just sort of done that in the background, so that could make you money while you do the interior design. Maybe I should have just married a banker.
Speaker 2:That's an easier way. Then you could afford to employ an interior designer.
Speaker 1:That's right, and then just take over their job, just have a nice little hobby, business yeah.
Speaker 2:I used to joke with a friend of mine and we used to say you know, I want to be so successful that I have enough money to employ an interior designer to do my house.
Speaker 1:I know It'd be such a luxury, though, wouldn't it, to like pick your favorite other interior designer and get them to actually come and do something for you. I actually think I'd really enjoy being the client.
Speaker 2:It'd be wild, wouldn't it?
Speaker 1:Wouldn't it, but I think it's so true though. Thank you for for saying that, because, um, it's competitive, it's tough. You have to wear many hats, so many, so many hats, like as you were saying you've got to have thick skin.
Speaker 2:You do. Yeah, you've got to be like I'm gonna march on. I don't really mind what you say, I'm just gonna keep going well, it's like what you said before with that project that you really got to be like I'm going to march on, I don't really mind what you say.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to keep going.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like what you said before with that project that you really like and still like, but it wasn't picked up by editorial, so there's, you know if you're in it for the adoration, then you're not going to last very long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, at the end of the day, it's my client's property, it's their home, yes, and I think, um, because I just enjoyed working with them so much and I wanted to put in some of their personality into the space with their special pieces. But the funny thing is, um, it only got a few images picked up here and there by the different press, but it's on my website and it's actually one that other clients talk about.
Speaker 1:so it's something about probably say that personality and connection to the client maybe, whereas magazines are looking for something entirely different sometimes and they don't see it.
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's another thing that you have to do as well. You have to stick by what you believe in and what you do, even if it is not so popular for a while. Or you know, like at the moment there's a definite look going on and it's completely different to what I do. So you know, I'm not going to go jump on that bandwagon because I like what I do, yes. So I think that you have to be quite stoic and weather the storm of other design and you know, trying to stay relevant.
Speaker 2:There's so much that goes into so much.
Speaker 1:I think, in the end, though, what makes a great designer is one that is authentic and stays true to that, because I think, if you continually change yourself to fit the narrative, the current narrative, you will get lost in it anyway. You won't stand out right. You're just going to be another one of the people that are just kind of doing the same thing, yeah, and it's just.
Speaker 1:You know, like if you look at any great artist like music, yes, you have to evolve, but you evolve for yourself, in your own. You know direction and where you want to go. You don't do it for I don't know the popularity. I mean, yeah, some people do, but like it does, I don't think that you don't stand out doing it that way me.
Speaker 2:Coming back to that question. You said you know what do you do. What do you do for what's a typical day? Look like um for you, and you know. To use an analogy, it could be like well, I bang my head against a brick wall for like seven hours and then I and then because I'll put out fires.
Speaker 1:I'm putting out fires of things that have gone sideways and exploded.
Speaker 2:Yeah put a. Well, yeah, you could probably say you bang your head against a brick wall for four hours, put out eyes for three hours and then do half an hour of design um, yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:And then?
Speaker 2:finish with a bottle of wine.
Speaker 1:It's an addiction, you know you, you wouldn't.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't be doing it if you were addicted to it.
Speaker 1:Well, we probably. As much as we kind of hate some of those parts of those things, I think we probably also enjoy the rollercoaster of it, right? We kind of thrive on the ups and downs. If it was steady and boring, we wouldn't be in this job.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent, and you're also trying to better it next time. So there's always like-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the challenge of that.
Speaker 2:a hundred percent the challenge and look, looking forward to the next one. You know, yeah, that's very true, the carrot dangling expect you to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the continual carrot, but it's so funny because I think your business, david, it does look very glamorous and luxurious, so you know it does. It's quite different to what you're saying. The daily struggles struggles like it's real, isn't it? It's not all the glamorous side of it that we do every day.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. Not at all.
Speaker 1:And you know it is hard as well in residential. I don't know so much about commercial, but you know there's ebbs and flows in the market, like there is a dip happening in Melbourne, as far as I can see that talking to a lot of designers are really quiet. So you know it's what's happening in Melbourne, as far as I can see that talking to a lot of designers are really quiet. So you know it's what's happening in the world. All of these different things can trickle down and shape our little tiny businesses well, for me anyway, and those things are just out of your control. But how and what's your sort of split now? Are you doing commercial and and resi?
Speaker 2:So we do. We're doing a lot of like private work. I call it private work, so you know houses or apartments, but we also do quite a bit of decorative stuff as well. And we've got the other side of it is we do increasingly more really high-end resi development stuff. So there might only be like five apartments or ten apartments. But it's funny what you say about the Melbourne market, like I think probably 80% of our work is in Sydney at the moment. Seriously, yeah, so it's interesting and I think Melbourne will start to pick up again towards the end of the year. But I think it's been very sort of Sydney focused for the last couple of years.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing the same thing talking to Sydney designers about how, you know, the Melbourne market has dropped off and it's quiet, inquiry wise and just generally work wise for so many of us. But then I speak to people in Sydney and they're like we're not experiencing that at all. So it is interesting. I think Melbourne still has a very big COVID hangover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so and I think. But I also think the dynamics have changed in terms of resi projects. I think there's less people renovating or decorating houses because a lot of them are going into these sort of like larger apartment style. You know luxury residential developments, developments and I feel like that resi work is more architectural. You know where it's probably a younger demographic building their family home, they're more concerned about the architectural side of it than the actual decorative side of it, because you know they've got kids and they've got lifestyle and they've got all of that and it's got to be a bit more practical. And so I really think the landscape of the resi type of work has changed. And if you're not in that development space as well, I think it would be very hard at the moment because there's not a huge amount of like individual resi work. I don't think unless you're an architect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point yeah, so I.
Speaker 2:So I think it really has shifted and I think that resi work used to be kind of like oh you know, like you kind of do it if you have to. But I honestly think it's the future of Melbourne and Sydney and that's where you know a lot of resi for interiors, a lot of resi projects are going to come from, because you know land's too expensive.
Speaker 2:Building a whole house is too expensive. A lot come from because you know land's too expensive. Building a whole house is too expensive. A lot more people are buying into apartments and a lot of people that buy into apartments might not have kids or their kids are older or you know they might have more than one house or so they can afford to be a little bit more. You know frivolous in in how things are designed and use, like you know, cream carpets and use this and use that because they don't have to worry about you know dogs or kids.
Speaker 1:But then it's the grandkids. It's like, oh come on.
Speaker 2:It can be the grandkids, but you know we do have some clients like that, but the grandkids are only allowed in certain rooms. Love it. So I do think there's a shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, with 25 years in business, you know you. You really there's been a global financial crisis, there's been COVID, there's been like, you know so many things and I think what we're experiencing now is just another dip. But, um, I'm curious, what is? What is um on the cards for the next 25 years for David Hicks? God, next 25 years it's wild, isn't it, to think about a long time ago.
Speaker 2:it's a long time to go um gosh, I don't know A couple of face lists at least.
Speaker 1:What about just next?
Speaker 2:year.
Speaker 1:Is it Istanbul now that we go to? Is it Turkey?
Speaker 2:or something. A few trips to Turkey.
Speaker 1:It's a different kind of architecture, isn't?
Speaker 2:it. It's a difficult question. I think I will probably start at some stage doing my own projects as well in terms of like kind of development, but maybe build a house and sell that and probably do a few things like that continue what I'm doing. I'm moving a little bit into collabs in product. That's cool, exciting. Yeah, it's really exciting. So we're doing a range of tap collabs in product.
Speaker 1:That's cool, exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really exciting. So we're doing a range of tapware with Sussex.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I love Sussex. That is very cool. They're like my favourite tapware brand, Vanessa. She's just amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's great. So we've designed a range with them which will be coming out later this year. We're also working with another company which I can't really say, but it's a you know bathroom sort of product Great. And then we're talking to another one about you know something else. So it's sort of deviating into things that we use in all of our projects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that, but things that we can't find what we want. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Like we can find it overseas but it's so expensive. So it's kind of bringing because I think a lot of like ranges in Australia. Everything's really slick and like very minimal and very like there's not really any, I agree, you know, there's not really any sort of decorative or interesting finishes or things like that. So it's more about bringing that more sort of european style to the products that are also made in australia.
Speaker 1:Great, what else have you got? Something that you haven't, that you're not doing, that you'd love to do, like fabric range wallpaper, I don't know car interiors, um, probably things out there in terms of product probably yeah, fabric, but because I could see you doing that, I think that would that could come. But in terms of product probably, yeah, fabric. But because I could see you doing that, I think that would that could come.
Speaker 2:But in terms of projects, I mean I'd love to do a hotel, boutique hotel. Yeah, that'd be pretty amazing. Uh, I don't know, just bigger houses with bigger budgets, I hope yeah, it's not too much to ask. Come on, come on universe come on, they yeah, they should be knocking my door down. What's going on?
Speaker 1:So good, oh, so good. Thanks, david. Thank you so much for the chat. That was so fun.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Congratulations again on 25 years. Thank you.