Design Anatomy
Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we examine the world of interiors and design. With a shared passion for joyful, colour-filled, and lived-in spaces, Bree Banfield and Lauren Li are excited to share their insights and inspiration with you.
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Design Anatomy
Design Professions Demystified: Designers, Architects and Stylists
What truly distinguishes interior designers from architects and decorators? Discover the answer as we unravel the complexities of these professions, ensuring you never misstep when hiring for your next project. Join us on a journey through the multifaceted world of interior design, where we dissect the roles and specialties within the industry, from commercial spaces to cozy home renovations. Our conversation guarantees clarity in understanding the often-overlapping responsibilities and skills essential for success in any design endeavor.
As we navigate the intricate landscape of design professions, we spotlight the importance of procurement and transparency, stressing the need for clear communication between clients and professionals. By demystifying the protected title of "architect" and shedding light on the undervaluation of decorators, we provide personal insights and industry perspectives that challenge conventional notions. With an emphasis on collaboration and the expanding scope of design education, we aim to elevate your appreciation for the artistry involved in creating functional and beautiful spaces.
Styling’s evolution is no less impressive, as we explore its journey from editorial shoots to an essential component of real estate. From magazine covers to compelling property visuals, the stylist's role is as dynamic as it is creative. We share captivating stories of styling triumphs, illustrating how seasoned decorators continue to learn from the ever-evolving styling craft.
Want the low-down on the good stuff? Sign up for the launch of Design Edit by Bree Banfield - curated pre-selected decor collections, workshops, design tours and trends. Learn more: BREE BANFIELD
Need an expert to guide you on how to create your DREAM home? Join the Style Studies Essentials course, learn more: STYLE STUDIES ESSENTIALS
Hey designers, let's get you working on amazing projects, increase your fees and straighten out your process. Lauren Li helps interior designers at all stages of their career inside THE DESIGN SOCIETY
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Hi there, I'm Bree and I'm Lauren Li. Welcome to Design Anatomy, where we explore and dissect the world of interior design.
Speaker 2:Today we are going to be dissecting. What does an interior designer do, an interior architect do an interior decorator do All these design professionals? What do they get up to, have you ever wondered? Well, we're going to tell you.
Speaker 1:It's actually pretty confusing, brie, and it is something that you know. Clients come to us. They're confused, they don't know who they need on their team and, to be honest with you a lot of interior designers or graduates. We're trying to figure out where we fit in and what we want to do. So I'm really excited to be talking about this topic and hopefully shedding some light on this. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that there are so many different facets of the design industry, which, kind of, is what makes it exciting, because lots of us cross over into those different areas, but it can be super confusing for someone who doesn't really understand all of those different aspects. So I think we're going to start by pulling apart interior designers.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good place to start and I think that you know this term interior designer. It just it's like a bit of a blanket term for a lot of other subcategories within interior design and there are so many, so many different types of interior designers out there and I know that. You know, when I graduated from interior design, the bachelor degree, I did not know, I did not touch a fabric. You know it wasn't what I thought it was. So, and I think both of our backgrounds come from a bit more of a commercial kind of world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think that definitely interior designer is probably the broadest term of them all because it also gets used by lots of different people doing different things. As you said, it can kind of cross over into more that decorator aspect, which we'll touch on and explain where it's more about decorating and fabrics and the materials, where it's more about decorating and fabrics and the materials. But what you and I have done I was basically commercial officers. We've both done a bit of retail and hospo as well and that is more really the nitty-gritty of sort of more structural design, so it could be walls and things like that.
Speaker 2:My first job was literally layouts of workstations on whole floors of big, you know high-rise buildings and working out how many to fit in there and how many offices went around the outside. That got the windows and where was the executive office. And probably the most fun bit of that was doing the bathrooms and the reception areas because they were a bit more creative. But it was all very much you know on paper at the time and lots of drawing and lots of like designing. How things come together, I suppose, is a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:I feel like I mean.
Speaker 2:I was the. You did the same right.
Speaker 1:Or similar, the same workplace and it's, yeah, the fun areas, the reception, as you say, the breakout areas. But then you know there's a whole world of retail design and I opened up a few amazing flagship stores when Sydney Westfield opened and that was really exciting, but honestly, a lot of it is churning out the same thing. You've got, yeah, hospitality, so you know your favourite restaurants, cafes. You know an interior designer has been in there and designed those spaces. There's education I worked on a few Melbourne University of Melbourne buildings. Then there's more specialised, you know, there's hospital. Sorry, not hospitality, but hospitals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course you know the medical and the science labs.
Speaker 1:There's just, yeah, lots of different niches in that. So I think you know, when you, when somebody pictures an interior designer, they might be picturing somebody who is waving around paint swatches and swishing fabrics around. I mean, it's very nice when we get to do that, but it's like 1%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And there is a whole other yeah, it's a whole other sector that is a lot more commercial yeah and then obviously we have that residential side of things where it could be anything from designing bathrooms, kitchens, doing renovations, actually updating floor plans, extensions and all of that sort of thing. So I think probably what we. I guess if you're looking for an interior designer, I guess the thing that you need to work out is what sort of work they do. So look into their work, because you don't want to be potentially approaching an interior designer to do your residential renovation and what they do is retail, so they're probably not going to take it on. There are designers that cross over into different areas. I know I've done a lot of that in the past, but most of us will kind of have our lanes that we sort of specialise in, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, and I think that, yeah, if we're talking about residential, I think that's probably we'll continue with that, I think, when we're comparing them because it is so wide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, true, and I think most of the people that are listening to us are probably going to be thinking about that, particularly if it's a homeowner, I don't know that we're going to get heaps of people coming on because they want to design their shop.
Speaker 1:but maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, or can we just fit in 10 more workstations?
Speaker 2:in that floor plan I could do that for you in my sleep.
Speaker 1:So I guess, like what an interior designer does, like we need to be able to, you know, listen to the client, take on that client brief, create a design response to that and communicate that back to the client. So there's lots of different ways that you can do that. It could be, you know, pen to paper in terms of sketching, you might want to do a 3D sort of sketch. You might want to jump onto you know different softwares to communicate that design. So I feel like a lot of the work that we do as designers is just communication and it's not always verbal.
Speaker 1:It's through materials. It's materials boards, mood boards and putting together 3D visualizations, where, if that's something you do yourself or you want to outsource it, and then the next step is then communicating that to a builder or to get permits and things so that they can understand the design, quote it and then build it. So, again, it's just a different way of communicating through technical drawings. Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I feel like I find one of the most interesting and challenging parts actually of being a designer is interpreting that initial brief and and the great feeling you have when you get it right.
Speaker 2:And you come back to the client and they can see that you've understood and exceeded their expectations. That's kind of my goal is that when you go back to them, they go. You've totally gotten it, actually more than I even was able to think of myself. You've taken it past that and shown me more, but it's exactly what I wanted. That's what I want to hear in a meeting.
Speaker 1:It's so weird. I think there's definitely a bit of like intuition and mind reading that you can go on and sometimes you don't always nail it the first time you know, sometimes you present something and then the client's like I know that I told you that I liked this, but that's, and I usually go a bit over the top, just rein it in a bit.
Speaker 2:I like yellow and you just give them everything yellow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be like your dream brief, probably. Oh really, what are you talking about? Yeah, I don't know. I somehow thought that Just wearing a beautiful yellow top and yellow artwork in the background there.
Speaker 2:Don't apologise, there's a little yellow going on. I mean sorry for those who are listening and can't actually see what I'm talking about, not pointing it out and explaining it. We are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, so I guess you did touch on also documentation, which is what we'll call it, which is those technical drawings that also need to be communicated to be able to create what it is that we have put forward to the client, and that probably takes us to, you know, qualifications as well, because not everyone that is calling themselves an interior designer can actually do that. Sometimes they'll bring in a draftsperson or someone to document for them, and if there are permits involved, not every interior designer can submit permits as well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we often use other people in our team, right, yeah, yeah, I mean there actually are quite a lot of hats to wear as an interior designer, from that you know communication level to that mind reading level, sometimes marriage counsellor it projects too. You get to know the family with the person quite well and you ask a lot of questions and we don't want to just be nosy, but we want to understand how our clients live so that we can design a space that suits. And you know I've made assumptions that are wrong. You know, for instance, when it comes to wardrobe space, I'm feeling like, well, obviously she's going to want this whole huge wardrobe. And he's like, actually, have you seen my sneakers collection? It's wild. I'm like, wow, we are going to have to really step up your side of the wardrobe. So you're really getting to know all of these quirks about your client and the whole family and even the dog. So we design for everyone in the family. So it is lovely when you do have that really nice relationship. But, yeah, you do need to know how people want to live in their home so that you can create.
Speaker 1:You designer it's filling up an existing space with furniture. That could be one part. It could be staying within that building envelope, reconfiguring the internal spaces, reorganizing where the kitchen, the living rooms are. It could also be. Are it could also be? Oh, I don't really. I find it really hard to design the externals, but I want a window here, because when you're sitting in the living room and you want to see the view so it's things like that All of a sudden you are designing that external sort of building and even new builds, renovations, or just like a kitchen and bathroom renovation. It doesn't have to be. It's such a wide range, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the point is from, I guess, explaining interior design. It's exactly as you said. It is quite broad, but what differentiates we're saying that properly differentiates we're saying that properly between, say, someone like a decorator or a designer, is the ability to be able to do what you said. Look at structural things, so be able to move walls, design bathrooms and kitchens and more physical structures and not just the layers that go on top of that. So, in terms of qualifications, being an interior designer or a qualified interior designer or someone that's really worked in the industry for a long time and learnt this over a period of time, they will have the skills to be able to do that type of work.
Speaker 2:So if you're looking for someone who, when you want to be able to do kind of more structural stuff and it's not just can you come into my existing house and pick the paint colours and the wallpaper and the carpet and the furniture and maybe there's some small things that need to be done, like can we just move this door here or whatever. That's a little bit different to having someone actually redesign a floor plan, like you said, work out. Actually this is not the best place for the living room, and I can see that this would work better if we move this here and we move that there and then it sort of becomes more structural. So I guess that's kind of the line between designer and decorator I would say.
Speaker 1:I agree. So I suppose in terms of how our fees work, this is not regulated. So interior design as a profession is really not that old, so it can be really confusing for clients to navigate this and compare one fee proposal to the next, because their whole structure could be totally different. Um, so I suppose broadly speaking it could mean that a designer could work on an hourly rate, a designer could have a fixed fee, or they could also charge a procurement fee for purchasing the, the products and the items on behalf of the client. And for me I do a combination actually of all of those. We do a fixed fee for the design, which is the part that I can kind of control, and then the coming onto site and just liaising with the management, yeah, liaising with the different contractors and trades.
Speaker 1:We do that at an hourly rate and then we have a procurement fee, which is like an admin fee, just for the purchasing of the goods for the clients. So it can be really confusing. And I also do one-off consultations as well. So, yeah, and I think over the years that's kind of what I've developed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I work quite similarly. I suppose I approach each project differently, but I would say fixed fee is probably the most common way to quote a project. Usually that's a pretty clear brief. I know how much time I need to spend on it. We have a hopefully airtight agreement too, that sort of constrains, how many design changes, et cetera. So we'll be really clear about that. Within that fixed fee I will also do hourly for design management and any kind of procurement or anything outside of what I can predict, because when it comes to going on site or you're dealing with builders and trades, you don't really know how long that's going to take. So it can be a bit tricky to do that as a fixed fee. I would never take that risk, and procurement I would do.
Speaker 2:I mean, a lot of people do it as a percentage, and procurement sorry for people that don't actually know what we're talking about is, I guess, one of the last stages of an interior design project, and not every interior designer does this. Some of them would get a stylist to do it, for instance, or a decorator, but procurement is when you are, I guess, doing those last layers of the furniture. It can be the curtains and things like that. I guess it can cross over a little bit into the fixtures, where you're not getting the trade to purchase the taps and you're doing it through your accounts. Some designers will do that. Everybody works a little bit differently, so that's procurement. Procurement is like literally the purchasing of the things that are going into the house. Yeah, so I guess my structure is pretty similar. I think that what designers charge will, as in like what the amount is is going to be different depending on their skill level and what type of work they do. I guess as well, and their experience is probably the best way to put it.
Speaker 1:I guess I don't think that there's a right and wrong way, but I do think that the best way is I love that, bosh, there was going to be something coming the best way is just so that the client knows how it's going to work. They need to know how much they're going to pay and when and how this whole procurement thing works. I just like to keep that all out in the open. So, but yeah, it's so varied, it is varied, so I suppose the next profession that we could talk about is interior architect.
Speaker 1:Yes, so this is a little bit of a tricky one because the term architect, it's a protected title and you can only call yourself an architect if you have completed the qualification and then sat the registration. It's like being a doctor. Yeah, exactly, yeah, right. It's confusing because there are degrees that you can undertake that are called interior architecture, and I get it Like when you've graduated, you want to tell clients that you're not a decorator, and an easy way to do that is to use that title, interior architect, because just like instantly, you're getting this kind of visual of somebody that's moving walls, that's creating internal spaces which is, I mean, that's what I guess an interior designer does as well.
Speaker 1:But because it's such a blanket term, because interior design is such a blanket term, it does kind of capture that decorator and I think that some interior designers really want to separate themselves out from decorators. So, yeah, this interior architecture title. It's really confusing and if you call yourself an interior architect, just make sure that you are actually a fully qualified and registered architect, because you can get into a little hot water if you use that title and you're not an architect.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, it is a really confusing one, and I think that maybe the way some people who've done that course kind of get around it is if you go onto their website you can see that that's what their qualification is and they'll kind of make that clear. They just can't say I am an interior architect, that's quite confusing and the interior architect course isn't dissimilar to the high level interior designer course. They're pretty similar aspects of the same thing.
Speaker 2:Definitely it's just a wording and I agree. I think actually I always wanted to be called an interior architect.
Speaker 2:And there was a lot of discussion when I was younger, first in the interior design world, and when I used to look down my nose at decorators, which I don't anymore. But back then it was like well, I if say you're talking to your friends or your family and saying you're an interior designer, they don't think about what we've got in our heads, particularly when you're working in commercial or you know more sort of structural area. They're thinking it's cushions and curtains and because I wasn't doing any of that, I felt like it was a little bit insulting.
Speaker 2:So interior architect? I remember there was a lot of conversations back when I was just sort of in that world, that commercial world, about trying to make that a thing where we were allowed to differentiate ourselves like that. I don't think back then that interior architecture course existed either, so it was just a term that was sort of being thrown around to try and say, well look, this is the difference between an interior designer and someone who actually, you know, interior designer, that's a decorator, because that's what happens with that term Anyway. So yes, I definitely used to look down my nose a little bit at that. It can be quite confusing. I think it's just looking into if you're looking at, I guess, hiring a designer, just looking into what they do, so that you can kind of see what their folio is and what they work on, and asking them, I suppose reaching out if you're interested, and saying this is the sort of project I'm doing, I love your work and is this the sort of project you would take on?
Speaker 1:Oh, I absolutely agree with everything you said, and I was the same too, because I'd studied the diploma interior design and decoration at RMIT, which I know so many people have completed that it's fantastic. And then I went on and did the bachelor degree at Swinburne of interior design and so I had six years of education and then I went out and I worked at commercial architecture practices sort of mid-size I guess. So that conversation you know when you're meeting your friend's mum or whatever, and what are you? What are you doing? Oh, I'm an interior designer. That's like come over because I can't work out which frilly cushion to have on my sofa. You'd be just rolling your eyes going. I don't do that because you've just been having your head in a computer doing you know, autocad markups for months on end and in schedules and all of this more technical thing. But I suppose, as I have got so, so much older, I really appreciate the work that decorators do, and it's not lesser than it's, just different.
Speaker 2:Yeah it is. Yeah, no, totally yeah. I think I have a total different respect for, you know, there's definitely things that I am it's not my skill set and there are amazing decorators who or interior designers that do decoration, which is often like really, that's kind of a lot of what I do now. I mean, I'll still do bathrooms and kitchens and reconfigure floor plans and residential, but you know, a lot of what I do is decoration essentially, and so, yeah, I definitely don't have that same attitude that I had before.
Speaker 2:There's room for all of us and to have different skill sets and kind of bring different people into your team as well on a project that can bring like a level of skill that you don't have. It's great to want to do everything and I think I went through a phase of that but you realize it's great to want to do everything and I think I went through a phase of that but you realise that there's so much research to do and if someone specialises in that, why wouldn't you bring them on and make the job even better by using that sort of skill?
Speaker 1:set Absolutely. So, yeah, I get why interior architects well, you can't use that term. But if you studied interior architecture, I get why you would. Well, you can't use that term, but if you studied interior architecture, I get why you would want to differentiate. So shall we talk about architects and what they offer, what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess that's kind of, and the way I would, I guess, draw that line between an architect and an interior designer is literally inside and outside. So architects will often work on the interior design, but it's more of the shell of it. I suppose they will sometimes do bathrooms, kitchens and finishes on those things, or they will have an interior designer that works with them on the project issues on those things, or they will have an interior designer that works with them on the project. Just depending on you know what they do. And I think with an architect, obviously they have the know-how to be able to create a structure that is going to work and not fall down, which is why they have to be registered, a bit like I said. Like you know, you go to a doctor because you know they know how to make sure they're doing the right thing with you. It's the same thing with an architect you go to them because you know that they know how to create a structure. I guess that's going to work and not create any issues.
Speaker 2:Choose, I guess closely related is building designer, and I'll just bring this up now because I guess the way I kind of see the difference between those two. So a building designer can do a lot of the same structural type work that an architect can. But I was thinking that an architect, what they bring is a particular point of view and an aesthetic. So you'll often find that I guess when you're looking at architects, that a particular architect will do the same kind of work in different iterations. They have a strong point of view about how something should look or the philosophy of their design, whereas a building designer you could probably go to with your own ideas and say this is the type of home I want to create or whatever it is, and they're probably going to be able to take on someone else's point of view a bit easier than a lot of architects who will generally have their own point of view. That you go to them for that as well, I don't know what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think that's perfect, yeah, perfect. I think an architect can deliver a design to you that captures all of the things on your wishlist, but so much more, so much more, and I mean an architect can deliver something that is just pure beauty and magic, incredible functionality but, there's a bit more I don't know poetry in that than just a ticking off a wish list.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's that difference right. So there's, an artistry to architecture, particularly those that do it well.
Speaker 1:Exactly and you know you're getting those things that you need but you're getting that extra which is just enhancing your day-to-day, you know way of life inside your property. So I suppose you know an architect. Obviously they need to be qualified I think it's a six-year qualification and then once they have graduated, as I mentioned before, they can't call themselves an architect until they have registered, which is experience, and completing an exam which I've heard is horrendous.
Speaker 2:So glad that interior designers don't need to do that.
Speaker 1:Oh no, thank you, no more exams. And the way that an architect sort of structures their fees is a lot more traditional. I feel like they're pretty much all aligned just because architecture has just been around for a lot longer than interior design. So they will usually base their fees off a percentage of the cost of the build and then they might have like a monthly retainer during this contract admin phase, so a architect can help administer the contract, so between the client and the builder. So I think they go a lot more in depth there than interior designers do, which just means that you know the design that you've wanted, that you've agreed to, that you're in love with, that your architect has created. You can work with her so that she can make sure that the builder is going to deliver what they've quoted for and what you've agreed to.
Speaker 1:So you're getting that really, really great level of service there too. And I think it's really good, as you said, brie, to contrast that with a building designer, because a building designer, basically they draw. If you have a design in mind or if you have a wish list, they will draw that for you. And I mean, like all of these professions, there are really wonderful, incredible talented building designers out there that will create a plan that is what you've wanted and more, but they're not trained at the same level of design as an architect. But I feel that for and they're also a lot less in the fees. I think that's probably safe to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree. I think that's probably the other thing that differentiates between the two. And you're right, it's a. I guess it's a qualification level as well. I guess it's a qualification level as well. So it just depends on a budget and how much you, I guess, want that design professional to be involved in the actual design. I mean, architect is going to kind of give you kind of everything, whereas building designer will have there'll be things that they cannot do or things that they aren't qualified to do compared to an architect, I think.
Speaker 1:I feel like as well, maybe architects might be loosening up a little bit, because, in terms of offering everything, I think, that some architects might be able to offer you. Here is this incredible concept, and you can go off, and I've had projects like that, where the clients engage the architect for those incredible design ideas and then they what you're thinking and yeah, but I think for us, for my business.
Speaker 2:It's been wonderful working with a great drafts person.
Speaker 1:Because I get to have my design implemented and we partner up and this draftserson will document it all, submit it to council because, brie, I've got no interest in doing that kind of thing. I don't want to do permit drawings and things.
Speaker 2:I used to love to document back in the day. I really would get right into it. I'd go into a zone and I used to love doing the drawings. Now I just don't have the love for it anymore and I'm not skilled as much as someone who dedicate. That's what they do, so I know they're going to do it faster.
Speaker 2:It's probably going to be more economical because they're going to be faster. They're probably going to be more efficient in the way they draw something to explain it compared to me. Now I know how to tell someone how to do it, but for me to sit down and do it would probably take like five times as long now. It's so out of the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't take long for new technology to come in, and you're like oh, my God. I'm clicking away on AutoCAD. I should be doing this in Revit or something.
Speaker 2:I use SketchUp, which is a little user-friendly and you know I've done your SketchUp course because I thought I think I need to be getting into this and I've done it and I understand SketchUp. But now I just get other people to do it so I can always go into that model and move things around or look at different views. But for me to build that, compared to someone who does it all the time would take me, you know, a week and it might take them half a day.
Speaker 1:Totally. Why would you do that? I don't have the patience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get I don't have the patience for it.
Speaker 1:No, and you need to use you know your talents, more Like your design talents yeah, Instead of clicking away on a computer, instead of clicking away on a computer. But yeah, I found it really great working with a draftsperson because I've been able to put together this project that we completed about a year or so ago down in Mount Martha, and it was the client wanting a bigger living space, so they wanted to extend on this property. But the thing was it had a great view of the water, with these small windows that looked out onto the water and a small living room. And what we ended up doing? Instead of having two living rooms, we opened it all up, we expanded the whole kitchen, relocated it, and they didn't actually need to push out the building envelope at all. So I'm saving them so much money.
Speaker 1:But the drafts person came in and I said hey, Cam, this is what I'm thinking. Let's get the engineer in and we need to move this wall out and we're going to reconfigure this. He draws up the floor plan, he draws up the external elevations, because we relocated and we basically moved a whole lot of windows and I'm like this is the cladding and he submits all of that. He does all of that for the builder and I do the internal documentation kitchen, bathroom, all those kind of benchtop details and things and that's where I like to figure stuff out. But it is. It's drawing on your strengths and working with a great team. So, yeah, that's really fun. I've found that a lot of clients find that works quite well an interior designer pairing up with a draftsperson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's a really good team and I love a draftsperson who also can show me sometimes a better way to do it. I might have an idea in terms of the structure of how I think it might come together and they'll sort of go. Actually, you could do it like this and it's going to be more efficient or cheaper or whatever it is. Yeah, it's great to have those people around you to just make everything kind of better really.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely, it's all about collaboration, love a collaboration.
Speaker 2:Love, that I mean.
Speaker 1:it's the same thing with all of the trades right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm digressing slightly, but you want collaboration with your trades and you want them to point out where something could be done better. That's what always makes, I guess, a better project.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I mean, that's why we try to get a builder on board early, whether or not they're engaged with the client or not. Let's get a builder in, let's walk through the property, let's throw around some big ideas, and they're doing this every day. They're knowing the price of things and, yeah, collaboration, yeah, no for sure. So what if we talk about interior decorator? We sort of touched on that before. So the way that I sort of see the difference between so an interior designer is going to focus on aesthetics and function, whereas a decorator is, I would say, more focus on aesthetics and function, whereas a decorator is, I would say, more focused on aesthetics and because they're basically working within an existing building, they're not really moving walls so much, but they're filling up a space with beautiful artwork, furniture, lighting, they might do some custom joinery, they might do some custom soft furnishings, wall colours yeah, I think that sort of would sum that up, so they can add that beautiful final layer to a property.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's spot on.
Speaker 2:I think it's if we look at it as layers and things that get added into a space, rather than creating things in the space other than potentially joinery or furniture that's often bespoke.
Speaker 2:I think decorators would probably say that's one of their skill sets is they'll do bespoke decorations. You know they'll do bespoke decorations, so whether that's a particular way the window finishings are done, the curtains, bedspreads, even having those made up so that they're not things that you can walk into a DERZ and grab off the shelf, they're making them a little bit more unique. And that's sort of where that skill set sits in being able to, I guess, know what can be done with particular fabrics. Even you know I definitely do not have that skill set and rely on others for that. I know it looks good, but you know they'll really understand the way a fabric's going to work and whether it can go on a particular sofa or chair or how it can be used and they'll really, I guess, be able to bring that to life in a space, compared to maybe, a designer who just isn't sitting in that skill set. Their skill set sits adjacent to that, I suppose is a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:I agree and I think that if you've completed the interior architecture degree, you may not have even touched a fabric. I know I didn't, and when I was working in these commercial architecture practices for like 10 years, one of the it was actually one of the wives of one of the directors said oh, do you think you could choose a wallpaper for my daughter's room? I literally had no idea where to start. The wallpapers are so many. I think, we're here in the commercial world.
Speaker 2:We had like a I did deal with fabrics, but like it was, like you know, workstation panels and the commercial fabrics were, I guess, a much smaller range of things. And then you go into residential and even now fabrics can I mean I love it, but I can get very overwhelmed If you go into you know, a few different showrooms. There's so much choice. There are so many colours, patterns, fabric weights, what the materials are, what they can be used for. Understanding all of that and having that skillset is like a whole thing on its own to me.
Speaker 1:It really is. And it might sound basic, you know choosing a upholstery fabric for a sofa, but if you get it wrong and that sofa starts sort of puddling, you know how you can sort of see where the fabric kind of wrinkles up. You know, after a few months of wearing you're like oh God, didn't have the right amount of stretch in it, like all these different little things. And you know it doesn't sound like the end of the world, but when you've spent $20,000, $30,000 on a sofa your client's not going to be too happy with you. So it's not just choosing something of nice fabric that looks good on the internet. You really kind of do have to understand it. And I don't believe in decorating emergencies, but sometimes there is a lot of money at stake with decorating projects and you know the thought of me measuring a window and ordering directly to a workroom it gives me a heart attack.
Speaker 2:I've done that and it does give you a heart attack. Yeah, because once it's made, right, if it's, yeah, just a little bit too short.
Speaker 1:You can't really fix that. Well, my first first job when I graduated, when I was like 21 years old, was for a decorator and I literally saw that happen. I mean, I was just fresh, I wasn't measuring anything, but the company that I worked for, the little business we went to do the install for the curtains and they were about 10 centimeters off the floor.
Speaker 1:And I think that really scarred me for life because that was so expensive. You know, some of these fabrics they're $600 a meter. Oh, yeah, like, yeah. So I think it's knowing again to collaborate and to call in your window furnishings consultant and I rely on her so much for that kind of thing. Yeah, same, but you know there's so many little things that can go wrong. You know, you just mentioned a bedhead, custom bedhead. Did we allow for PowerPoints in there? No, okay, right, well, this is a disaster, like just again. There's no such thing as a decorating emergency, but I think a little bit more goes into it than people first think. I definitely think so. I think it's underestimated.
Speaker 2:I do think that people think it's just about coordinating patterns and colours, and it isn't.
Speaker 2:There is a whole skill set there that I think should be really valued.
Speaker 2:And there's decorators that have been around a long time and they know so much, and they're the ones that kind of end up probably crossing over into the design area as well, even though maybe that's not what they studied, because they've got projects where then the client says I love what you did with our living room, but we really need a bathroom done, and maybe they've just sort of started to kind of slide into that interior design area and there is crossover, crossover. Um, yeah, I know I worked with a decorator when I was younger, before I even studied just like work experience and she was one of the most knowledgeable um, non-designers is probably a good way to put it because she was very much an interior decorator, that was her business. But she knew how to, you know, do a bathroom, do a kitchen, you know small renovation sort of thing. She just was very knowledgeable because she'd been in the industry for so long. So I guess there is something is just really learning on the job with that stuff too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think that's a really good point. You know talking about these different qualifications. You can work your way up in a job like an interior decorator. You can do you know something as starting at a certificate, a cert for in interior decoration I think that might be what it's called and you might be looking at you know a second career and you're not sure. You're like I don't know if I need to go in and do another. You know degree. Can I just sort of test this out and do a shorter course to figure it out? And often it's a lot more technical than what people think. They think that perhaps if I wanted to work as an interior decorator I would be just touching fabrics all day. And you know, you remember Frank Frank from Father of the Bride, oh my god I love Frank.
Speaker 1:You know Frank swans in the bath. You know some kind of eccentric character like that. In reality, you cannot run a business like Frank. Although he seemed pretty rich, though I don't know, he was probably ripping his clients off. We don't want that. That's why we want transparency with our pricing.
Speaker 2:I mean, you do produce some beautiful work though. That wedding was amazing yeah and then remember in the second one he created that kid's bedroom which was like wow, and they did do a renovation as well. Frank can do it all. Frank can do it all Well.
Speaker 1:I always remember the mum from Mrs Doubtfire because she was an interior designer but she was really stressed out. I can kind of relate to her.
Speaker 2:Oh, she was too. I'd totally forgotten.
Speaker 1:I feel like.
Speaker 2:I need to re-watch that.
Speaker 1:So I think film and TV have a lot to answer for when it comes to that perception of that airy-fairy interior decorator. But in reality there are a lot of moving parts. Yeah, there's a lot of money at stake and it's ordering, it's coordinating, but I mean, when it comes down to it, it's having that. Obviously you need to have the eye for it, you need to have the client trust your taste, but it doesn't all happen on its own. You need to still communicate your design, whether that be in hand sketches or 3D or however you want to communicate that design. It could be fabric mood boards. You know, I've seen some beautiful, beautiful fabric boards when I worked in London for an interior design company and they just, it was just. I always remember how beautiful they were. There's lots of different ways you can communicate your design, but I think it is good to have a bit of a process as well and not be too much of a frunk where you're just like making decisions on a whim and waving around fabrics.
Speaker 2:I mean the clients aren't going to put up with that. Underestimating him, I reckon he was all over it.
Speaker 1:I am. I'm putting him down too much. He was a legend. I loved him.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess kind of decoration is interior decorator kind of. For me, then, next thing to talk about is stylist, because that word has changed considerably. I would say when I first started in interior design, I wouldn't have even known what a stylist was, and they probably only existed as editorial stylists then. So stylist itself has different categories too in um, but someone will just say I'm a stylist and then you'll have to try and work out what kind of styling they do.
Speaker 2:So there's editorial style, which, um, is probably the first form of styling that really ever happened, and that's where um you work for a magazine, or a magazine employs you to either create sets that are photographed for the magazine, that communicate a trend, or what's good in lighting, what's good in windows, or whatever it is, or you're going into a home and zhuzhing it is probably the best way to put it, because you'll go into home usually and only bring flowers, maybe a few accessories, but you'll sort of make sure that the shot looks great.
Speaker 2:So you might put a chair in a different spot or, you know like, change things around so that that shot looks amazing, but you're predominantly using what's already there in the home. So I think that's kind of where styling started. And then people started to go that's a really cool job, and then they wanted to be stylists. And then somehow the people who were kind of decorators, or that's a really cool job, and then they wanted to be stylists. And then somehow the people who were kind of decorators, or that's what they wanted to do, started to call it styling. This is also just my opinion, but I think that there are interior stylists who are pretty much interior decorators, but styling is just a cooler word now.
Speaker 1:It is, and I think you know I actually think the word decorator it does sound too fluffy, also kind of sounds old fashioned doesn't it, it does, doesn't it, it doesn't sound very modern to be an interior decorator.
Speaker 2:I think that we're claiming it back. I'm happy to say that I do interior decoration I just happen to wear kind of a lot of hats and I also do styling. But when I talk about being a stylist I will say you know, I'm a photographic stylist. So that means that I predominantly style for photography. So a brand wants a shoot done or a magazine so it can cross over into editorial, but it's styling for a shot. And it's very different to when people say I'm a stylist and they mean they're a decorator. That's like different to when people say I'm a stylist and they mean they're a decorator. That's like a whole different job. But they're kind of calling themselves the same thing. So I've kind of put photographic in front of it so that if I say you know I'm a stylist, I'll say I'm a photographic stylist. So people understand that I'm a photographic stylist but I'm also an interior designer and maybe that crosses over into interior decoration, just to confuse her. It is so nuanced, isn't it? It is, yeah, well it is nuanced.
Speaker 1:You know, I think you know we talked about an interior decorator. They're not so much concerned in function as an interior designer is it is about. You know, how can we create a beautiful vignette on this console table by arranging an artwork, a stack of books and a lamp? So they're concerned about that sort of aesthetics. They're probably not moving walls and things and thinking about the function of a space as much. I mean, we talked about the difference between the fabrics and how they still need to, I suppose, function for the application. But I think a stylist the way I sort of see a stylist it's even less so in terms of function because they're setting up a well, a photographic stylist, as you say, they're setting up a 2D image, a photograph. Yes, there is no function in that. So, as you said, they might be moving this beautiful armchair.
Speaker 2:that's you know that's where the client sits. Oh, sometimes we're putting it where it would never go.
Speaker 1:You're moving furniture sometimes no, like in front of a fireplace or and if you actually stood in the room, you'd go.
Speaker 2:This makes no sense.
Speaker 1:But in the shot it looks great. It's all smoke and mirrors. Actually, yeah, it is smoke and mirrors and I actually was chatting to a designer before. She does interior design, but mostly decoration. We were talking about photo shoots and I was explaining what an interior stylist does and at the beginning she said, oh, I really don't think I need a stylist, like I'm a decorator, I can do this. And then at the end of our discussion and I was breaking it down for her and she's like wow, I've really learned a thing here, because we were talking about some photo shoots that I'd seen, there's this great image. It's by Pearson Ward. I don't know if you know those American designers. They shot a kitchen and it has a goose in the kitchen. It's like a country house. Oh, I need to see this. You'll have to send it to me and I thought how whimsical and how sort of 1980s.
Speaker 1:That kind of reminds me of 1980s styling. You know, the different um editorial trends, the different you know way that we shoot, it can change a lot. And and there's a Wawa project, which is a kitchen, and it's this beautiful pinkish tone, and there's big balls of dough bread dough on the bench with flowers scattered. I think Ruth Welsby did the styling for that.
Speaker 1:Again, I just remember that because I was like how wonderful it's just like somebody is having a great day of baking and they've just stepped out of the shot and it really conjures up such a great sort of emotion. So you know that editorial stylist, it is a very specialized profession and career and just because you might be a great decorator it doesn't mean that when you can put that camera in the space you can style in front of it. I mean, personally I get kind of paralyzed because I'm under all this pressure to get the perfect shot and you've got that one day. That's why I have like a course on that so I can help people plan the day, because it is that it's so much pressure on that one day of getting that perfect shot.
Speaker 2:And you're right. I feel there's lots of designers who wouldn't take on a stylist for a shoot. I think it's fair. It's obviously a lot of outlay in terms of budget to shoot a project, but I think if they compared, or if they did it and had a stylist or the right stylist or the right team, I always say stylist and photographer should be working together as a team and try and pick one that has already worked with each other and they understand each other's strengths and also why you're shooting it, and you know you talk about this.
Speaker 2:I think in that course, lauren, if you're aiming for Vogue, are you aiming for Belle? Is it Home Beautiful? Is it the Design Files? I don't know. Whatever it is that you kind of want from that shoot, you really should have that in mind and not just go into a house and shoot it and a good photographer and stylist will tell you what your house is good for as well, because you might not really know, and that's fair. But if you pick a photographer and a stylist who understand the magazines and they come through and do what we call a recce of the home or even just shots you've given them, they'll go look, this isn't a bell house and usually be very honest with you, but we think we could get this into Home Beautiful or whatever it is. Or you know, I've also told designers before, because I've done those sort of shoots, that it's not a magazine house. We will make it look amazing for you.
Speaker 2:It'll go on your website. You'll use it for your socials, it'll be part of your portfolio, but you probably won't get a run. Or sometimes the kitchen's amazing but there's not enough in the house for an article on the house, but that kitchen may get picked up by many magazines, so it's always worth having, I guess, that team look at your project so that you get an understanding of where to spend the money, invest in that and then you getting the PR or whatever it is you want out of it. Sometimes people don't care about magazines, they just want to shoot it for their portfolio and that's it right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes, as you say, it might not be a whole house, but that kitchen, and specifically that butler's pantry, is wild. And if you get a stylist in to style the butler's pantry, you upload that to Pinterest.
Speaker 2:You're going to be so famous on Pinterest.
Speaker 1:So, it depends, you know, yeah, where you want to pitch what you want to do with your images. Yeah, I find that really interesting. So I guess an editorial stylist, you know the way that they might charge. They might charge like a half day rate if it's a half day photo shoot and a full day rate, those things don't exist Half day photo shoots. What's a half day?
Speaker 2:No, sorry, I know, I don't know either Most of the time, particularly unless you are just shooting a kitchen or something, it'll be a full day One room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, if it's a house.
Speaker 2:it'll be a full day, yeah, day rates. So day rate, half day rate. A shoot day is usually more expensive than a production day, so you'll have a production day fee. So post-production or pre and post-production depending on what the job is. So when they're sourcing, if they have to go find extra decor, or sometimes they'll need to find extra furniture for you or do the recce of the house, that'll all fall into pre-production. So that'll be a slightly lower rate usually than a shoot day. Rate is a little bit higher. Everyone is slightly different too in the way they do things. I do know stylists who actually just charge a rate that's the same, which is kind of fair, because I don't know why. That's just a historical structure that's been put on to stylists that we do a lower production rate than we do on a shoot day. I have no idea why often you do more a lower production rate than we do on a shoot day. I've no idea why often you do more work on the production Not really, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, if you've got a, if an interior designer or an architect have completed the project and it was, say, for instance, a whole new build and they want to shoot it. But the furniture was not part of the client brief but client wanted to use their own furniture. You can't shoot that house with the client's furniture in there unless they've got incredible pieces so so I mean I've done wild things.
Speaker 1:I've literally had a whole truck full of furniture to shoot a new build because it needs to look furnished and lived in if you want to print it. So, all of that work to, as you say, print production, just to gather a whole house of furniture. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:It can be quite a lot of work.
Speaker 1:It can be a lot of work. And really to talk about the next one, which property stylist I mean? I feel like the styling part is quite minimal. The zhuzhing karate chopping or whatever for the cushions. I think property stylist of the old karate chop and the flowers on the bedside is like the one percent. It's the way I see it. Maybe I don't know if I'm wrong, but I see it as a logistics kind of job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're gonna work out what you need right for each room like a list and then yeah usually they're also drawing on their own stock.
Speaker 2:Most property stylists, I think to be successful in property styling you either need to have a very good relationship with the, the higher company that's loaning out the furniture or hiring out the furniture, or you literally have a warehouse of stuff. So you'll kind of already know what's going to come together in that property and often I would say there's a little bit of repetition. I mean, everything's going to be slightly different, but there's probably like a little bit more of a formula I would say to property styling. I think Would you agree.
Speaker 1:Totally, and I think what's expected is the reason that you're brought in there is the seller wants to get the highest price for their property. Is it about creating a beautiful space? Is it about creating a livable space? No, not really. It's creating a space that is going to get the highest profit, which means that you're not being able to flex your creativity. It's all about being the most generic vanilla sometimes. I mean I'm not speaking for all property stylists, but I say in general it is a little bit. I think that's why you get that sameness. You get those same artworks.
Speaker 2:nothing offensive, Everything's nice and it comes down to cost, I think too, and why you get that repetition A 100%. It's broad market appeals, probably your aim, or specific market appeal, depending on what the property is, and then it's budget. So you will see the same artwork because that artwork probably sits in an affordable spot and it's probably owned by one of the people that hires out the furniture. So you will see repetition 100% in property styling and it's still a particular skill. I guess that's the thing, right.
Speaker 2:That differentiates between stylists is the intent. So you've got a photographic stylist. The intent is the photograph making it look great for that. And then property styling, for instance, is literally the intent is we want to sell this, so we want people to walk in and they kind of have to fall in love with the property, and then what goes into it that the stylist puts in just has to make it feel, I guess, good enough, but not too crazy, because they also need to be able to imagine themselves in there. So that's why it becomes kind of a bit more generic, right, I know I'm totally speaking off the cuff because I've done very little.
Speaker 2:I've done maybe three properties, because it's just. It literally it's a whole different game. It's just, it's not my, it's not something I enjoy doing and it is a lot more of a formula and it's a lot less of your own creativity, as you said, being put into it. So it's not something that I love to do, but I get that. It's also something that is quite satisfying in a short amount of time, because you go in and install a place and make it look kind of more amazing than what it probably did before with the homeowner's stuff.
Speaker 1:I agree, and I think that satisfaction, that feeling of that transformation would be quite addictive.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so too, because you're doing it for like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because when you're working on your own project, I mean, it can be like two years until you see that and then you're sort of like oh gosh. But yeah, I think that would. You'd have to have that passion to keep going and to see that transformation. And I think a great property stylist you know imagine how much value they can add.
Speaker 1:But I also feel like you're maybe getting a recommendation from a real estate agent, maybe with three other property stylists, and you might get some clients that are like okay, well, which one's the cheapest? I kind of get, I can't, I don't know I kind of get that vibe, because sometimes it's funny, I think, with property styling.
Speaker 2:I think it's necessary, but there are there's a level of properties where it probably doesn't make a very big difference and that's why you'll see people do it, photograph it and then not keep it for the. For the rest of the you know, like when people would come and visit the home, it's back to kind of what it was, because there's probably not the value to, you know, pay for a longer term hire of that stuff, Whereas there would be kind of, I guess, a price point where it becomes important to have a really good property stylist, because if you don't match what goes into the home with the level of the house, you can actually bring it down. There's a danger there that if you pay too little for a property stylist and you're trying to sell a high-end property, you make it look cheaper.
Speaker 2:So, it's really important, right?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you make such a good point so important and also I feel like it's really sad that somebody makes their house look good as they're on their way out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know when you move in.
Speaker 1:It should be a property stylist that when you move in, that's when you want to. That's your interior stylist.
Speaker 2:Because the intent is different.
Speaker 1:It is, it is, it is yeah. So I guess we've covered a lot, and I suppose there's so many other careers that revolve around interior design. You know, colour consultant, you could be an educator, yes. Writer Salesperson.
Speaker 2:Or even a content creator yeah, working in those retail showrooms, yep, oh, or even a content creator showrooms yep, oh, you're a content creator that specializes in interiors and lifestyle. I can think of you a few of those same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't think, you know, we've covered everything.
Speaker 2:And again, these are my points of view, that you're coming at us come at us all of you design professionals and tell us how wrong we are with our descriptions. We expect to get some things wrong.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and that's okay, Like yeah, I'm just yeah curious to know, and I suppose it's regional as well. You know we're talking from Melbourne, Australia. That's true, you know, I worked in the UK for a bit and it was so different there and I get the feeling it's different in North America as well.
Speaker 2:I feel like they. You know when we talked about before that whole interior design versus interior decorator and you know when we potentially look down our nose a bit at it. I've always thought that in the UK and in America and North America that decorators were like really highly valued and the word decorator was quite respected and you didn't even hear the word designer as much.
Speaker 1:I don't think like it was all about coming in and decorating the house, like I mean, I've obviously taken this probably mostly from movies, but you know well, I mean, just from my experience in the UK, the decorators there were so good at what they did and they didn't touch CAD. They didn't touch any of that, they just did not just, but they did decoration. So I feel like that was enough, whereas, you know, in Australia, you know, we have our interior designer decoration diploma, which does touch on colour fabrics, but the degree it's very architectural.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I feel that's where you sort of really got that snobbery kind of coming through of anything that was a bit decoratory. I was really looked down upon and I was like, well, I actually don't want to be an architect, I want to be an interior designer. I want to design from the inside out. That's really important. The things that you touch, how you interact with finishes and the space, like how it makes you feel Like. For me that's really important, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1:But it was very yeah, and that decoration is part of that. Definitely you get that kind of feeling.
Speaker 2:It's a huge part of it, I think, I think. I think all of these professions add to an amazing project and, um, I think the sooner you realize, when you're in um the design industry, how valued all of these different things are and and how they can all come together so well to create sort of. I don know a better project than when there's just one professional working on it. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that we have explored all of those in a bit of detail. We've talked for over an hour. I don't think we'll be this long for all of our podcast episodes, but I feel like this was an important one to just kind of. This is how we see it, and we've got a whole lot of guests lined up as well, so I really hope that you enjoyed the episode if you stayed for this long. Thank you, thank you for listening. Thanks for sticking around. Yeah, and yeah, we'll look forward to catching up next. Yes, speak to you soon. Cool, see you, bree Bye. So thank you, guys for listening in. And just a quick reminder if you would like some help with the interiors for your own home, I can help you in a course called the Style Studies Essentials. Or, for designers out there, come into the Design Society for business and marketing and all of the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in the same show notes you'll find a link to sign up for my soon-to-be-released furniture collections, pre-selected furniture collections and cool trend information, and then, in the future, some short courses on styling and trends as well.
Speaker 1:So good Bree. We've got the utmost respect for the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. They're the OG custodians of this unceded land and its waters, where we set up shop, create and call home and come to you. From this podcast today, a big shout out to all of the amazing elders who have walked before us, those leading the way in the present and the emerging leaders who will carry the torch into the future. We're just lucky to be on this journey together.